UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes, I get that, but why ask for a bail hearing if you know your client won’t be granted bail (because of the seriousness of the charges)?

I think when one can afford a top notch barrister they can argue for anything if you pay them.

I suspect the barrister was ready to mount a very cohesive argument - stating that C had been led astray by a bad influence, that she is fragile and vulnerable, better suited to a treatment centre or therapeutic community, maybe arguing she needs drug rehab, mental health care, or medical treatment, or maybe to be kept in the safety of her mother's home, on an ankle tag, under supervision etc, private security company etc.

I imagine that her mother may have briefed a KC 'just get my daughter out of there at all costs'.
Wealthy people can usually pay their way out of court cases as the standard of lawyer they get is so superior to the cases that the police put together. IMO JMO

 

[Alyce]

Then he must be very expensive and very rigorous because the magistrates hearing is really just a formality, a person is brought in front of the magistrate, confirms their name and details and the magistrate explains the case is being passed up to Crown Court.

I *think* they might ask the defendant if there's anything they'd like to say, can't remember, but maybe the defence thought they'd best be there in case she decided to say things?

For sure. That was my point. Pay enough money and get premium service.

 

[Nikynoo]

I think when one can afford a top notch barrister they can argue for anything if you pay them.

I suspect the barrister was ready to mount a very cohesive argument - stating that C had been led astray by a bad influence, that she is fragile and vulnerable, better suited to a treatment centre or therapeutic community, maybe arguing she needs drug rehab, mental health care, or medical treatment, or maybe to be kept in the safety of her mother's home, on an ankle tag, under supervision etc, private security company etc.

I imagine that her mother may have briefed a KC 'just get my daughter out of there at all costs'.
Wealthy people can usually pay their way out of court cases as the standard of lawyer they get is so superior to the cases that the police put together. IMO JMO

Exactly, and that why I wanted to hear more. I want to know on what grounds the KC argued.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Exactly, and that why I wanted to hear more. I want to know on what grounds the KC argued.

Makes one wonder as a magistrate wouldn't be anywhere near qualified to start arguing points of law with a KC.

I assume that the defence have already tried to explore every avenue available to them - wrongful arrest, mis-treatment, breach of PACE, human rights violations, etc and have made all the appropriate applications to the court requesting release into custody of an alternate secure environment to meet their special needs etc.

I'm not sure how that works but I think they'd all be paper applications and specific forms along the way and wouldn't suddenly be able to mount their arguments at a hearing - they probably didn't even speak ?
We need a UK barrister here to fill us in on due process!

I think when it comes to crown court we're going to see some pretty strong arguments that C is not / was not legally culpable for her actions due to addiction and mental health issues plus an abusive relationship. They will say she's the grieving mother of a lost child and this treatment is barbaric etc, that she is at daily risk in a prison when she should be receiving medical care that her family can privately fund.

When you start to consider all that an exceptionally wealthy family can do for a person that the prison system can't, it does start to look a bit unreasonable to insist on locking them up at taxpayers expense as opposed to allowing them secure supervised activities in the outside world.

Of course with C the biggest risk is re-offending and more of the same, so she really does need rehabilitation and to answer to her 'crimes' if she's deemed fit and culpable.

 

[Alyce]

Makes one wonder as a magistrate wouldn't be anywhere near qualified to start arguing points of law with a KC.

I assume that the defence have already tried to explore every avenue available to them - wrongful arrest, mis-treatment, breach of PACE, human rights violations, etc and have made all the appropriate applications to the court requesting release into custody of an alternate secure environment to meet their special needs etc.

I'm not sure how that works but I think they'd all be paper applications and specific forms along the way and wouldn't suddenly be able to mount their arguments at a hearing - they probably didn't even speak ?
We need a UK barrister here to fill us in on due process!

I think when it comes to crown court we're going to see some pretty strong arguments that C is not / was not legally culpable for her actions due to addiction and mental health issues plus an abusive relationship. They will say she's the grieving mother of a lost child and this treatment is barbaric etc, that she is at daily risk in a prison when she should be receiving medical care that her family can privately fund.

When you start to consider all that an exceptionally wealthy family can do for a person that the prison system can't, it does start to look a bit unreasonable to insist on locking them up at taxpayers expense as opposed to allowing them secure supervised activities in the outside world.

Of course with C the biggest risk is re-offending and more of the same, so she really does need rehabilitation and to answer to her 'crimes' if she's deemed fit and culpable.

They are already at Crown Court stage - the hearing in July and today were both at the Old Bailey.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

They are already at Crown Court stage - the hearing in July and today were both at the Old Bailey.

ah, apologies, I've dropped off following this case and wasn't aware. I shall re engage now they're in court

 

[Alyce]

Crediting this info to @QB2022 who flagged it up today

Constance Marten lover Mark Gordon demands to appear in dock with her

Mark Gordon, 48, and Constance Marten, 35, sparked a huge UK police hunt after they went on the run with their new born baby in January this year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

Marten came into the dock in person, but Gordon attended on a videolink from HMP Belmarsh.


Gordon's defence counsel Kevin Light KC said:

'he was not produced for this hearing. He would like me to express that he is unhappy he has not been produced.

Mr Light then explained he had difficulties meeting with Gordon to discuss the case.

He said: 'I have been to see him on three occasions at Belmarsh and unfortunately on two of these occasions what should have been two hour meetings turned into one hour meetings because of prisoners being moved.'



Judge Richard Marks explained it is not normal practice for defendants to appear in administrative hearings

he resolved to 'make a note on the system that he is to be produced at the next appointment.'



The judge questioned why Marten was in court for the hearing, saying: 'I do not know why the other defendant has been produced.'

Mr Philip Sapsford, Marten's defence barrister explained he was going to discuss the case with her after the hearing.

Constance Marten lover Mark Gordon demands to appear in dock with her

Mark Gordon, 48, and Constance Marten, 35, sparked a huge UK police hunt after they went on the run with their new born baby in January this year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Telltale]

Makes one wonder as a magistrate wouldn't be anywhere near qualified to start arguing points of law with a KC.

I assume that the defence have already tried to explore every avenue available to them - wrongful arrest, mis-treatment, breach of PACE, human rights violations, etc and have made all the appropriate applications to the court requesting release into custody of an alternate secure environment to meet their special needs etc.

I'm not sure how that works but I think they'd all be paper applications and specific forms along the way and wouldn't suddenly be able to mount their arguments at a hearing - they probably didn't even speak ?
We need a UK barrister here to fill us in on due process!

I think when it comes to crown court we're going to see some pretty strong arguments that C is not / was not legally culpable for her actions due to addiction and mental health issues plus an abusive relationship. They will say she's the grieving mother of a lost child and this treatment is barbaric etc, that she is at daily risk in a prison when she should be receiving medical care that her family can privately fund.

When you start to consider all that an exceptionally wealthy family can do for a person that the prison system can't, it does start to look a bit unreasonable to insist on locking them up at taxpayers expense as opposed to allowing them secure supervised activities in the outside world.

Of course with C the biggest risk is re-offending and more of the same, so she really does need rehabilitation and to answer to her 'crimes' if she's deemed fit and culpable.

The cost of medical care won't factor in. Something like 98% of the population use the NHS and the 2% tend to be for skip-the-queue for non urgent care type deals. Yes her family could pay for cushy care, but healthcare is a given inside or outside.

IMO They won't be let out because the police pumped several million into finding them and still didn't get there in time.

The UK almost never does cash bail. You are basically let back out unless there are significant reasons you shouldn't be.

These two will almost definitely be remanded under 'significant flight risk ' Particularly Marten, who (apparently) has the kind of funds to get out of the UK and live near-indefinitely wherever.
- Not that we've seen much evidence of her drawing from a large reserve of money, but family might be more likely to help her without a baby's life on the line and potentially a long sentence ahead.

TLDR - after they hid so successfully from such a significant public campaign, with it appears to be no assistance and towing a newborn, the police and the court are not going to run the risk of having to say they lost them again. IMO

 

[rightsaidfred]

I think when it comes to crown court we're going to see some pretty strong arguments that C is not / was not legally culpable for her actions due to addiction and mental health issues plus an abusive relationship. They will say she's the grieving mother of a lost child and this treatment is barbaric etc, that she is at daily risk in a prison when she should be receiving medical care that her family can privately fund

I'm not sure there is a pathway for the family to fund secure forensic mental health care.

If the court finds that her mental health is such that a hospital is more appropriate than prison, then she will receive a hospital order rather than a prison sentence.
https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/courts-and-mental-health/section-37/

Of course a good barrister and a sympathetic psychiatric report can help get the hospital order, but that's different to paying for treatment itself.

Private mental health care does exist for things like eating disorders, but I've never known the family pay for it in a criminal context. There are some private hospitals (e.g. Priory Group) offering secure forensic mental health services, but that's NHS funded.

If it was deemed that she needed high security forensic mental healthcare treatment then she would end up at Rampton Hospital (Mark Gordon, under the same circumstances, would end up at Ashworth or Broadmoor Hospitals, due to sex segregation). There's more options for low / medium secure forensic care.

We have no idea if she has a mental health diagnosis, but mild to moderate mental health issues, addiction issues and abusive relationships are entirely par for the course amongst female prisoners, so I think her barrister would have a very hard time arguing that that alone necessitated hospital treatment. If a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia with psychosis at the time of the crime, or something equally serious, was found then they might find it easier to argue for a hospital.

While money helps in every judicial system, I don't think money helps quite as much in the UK justice system as it does in some other countries.

 

[Nikynoo]

Crediting this info to @QB2022 who flagged it up today

Constance Marten lover Mark Gordon demands to appear in dock with her

Mark Gordon, 48, and Constance Marten, 35, sparked a huge UK police hunt after they went on the run with their new born baby in January this year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Interesting - thank you.

 

[Skigh]

Constance Marten lover Mark Gordon fails to come to court

Mark Gordon (pictured), 48, and his girlfriend Constance, 35, sparked a huge police hunt after they went on the run with their daughter in January this year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The lover of runaway aristocrat Constance Marten did not attend court today after firing his solicitors before the start of the trial over the death of their newborn baby.

Mark Gordon, 48, and his girlfriend Constance, 35, sparked a huge police hunt after they went on the run with their daughter in January this year.

Baby Victoria was later found dead in a plastic bag in a shed under a heap of nappies on a Brighton allotment.

Gordon did not appear at the Old Bailey for today’s hearing. A note from HMP Belmarsh said he was not well enough to come to court as he had been up all night and could not concentrate.

Gordon had previously complained about being produced at court on a video-link and asked to be produced in court in person.

 

[Nikynoo]

Constance Marten lover Mark Gordon fails to come to court

Mark Gordon (pictured), 48, and his girlfriend Constance, 35, sparked a huge police hunt after they went on the run with their daughter in January this year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The lover of runaway aristocrat Constance Marten did not attend court today after firing his solicitors before the start of the trial over the death of their newborn baby.

Mark Gordon, 48, and his girlfriend Constance, 35, sparked a huge police hunt after they went on the run with their daughter in January this year.

Baby Victoria was later found dead in a plastic bag in a shed under a heap of nappies on a Brighton allotment.

Gordon did not appear at the Old Bailey for today’s hearing. A note from HMP Belmarsh said he was not well enough to come to court as he had been up all night and could not concentrate.

Gordon had previously complained about being produced at court on a video-link and asked to be produced in court in person.

do you think he has untreated mental health issues?

 

[Skigh]

do you think he has untreated mental health issues?

Or a huge sense of entitlement.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Constance Marten lover Mark Gordon fails to come to court

Mark Gordon (pictured), 48, and his girlfriend Constance, 35, sparked a huge police hunt after they went on the run with their daughter in January this year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The lover of runaway aristocrat Constance Marten did not attend court today after firing his solicitors before the start of the trial over the death of their newborn baby.

Mark Gordon, 48, and his girlfriend Constance, 35, sparked a huge police hunt after they went on the run with their daughter in January this year.

Baby Victoria was later found dead in a plastic bag in a shed under a heap of nappies on a Brighton allotment.

Gordon did not appear at the Old Bailey for today’s hearing. A note from HMP Belmarsh said he was not well enough to come to court as he had been up all night and could not concentrate.

Gordon had previously complained about being produced at court on a video-link and asked to be produced in court in person.

Drugs, probably. Let's not forget there's more dreadful quality drugs flooding places like Belmarsh than there even is on the street. 'Up all night and could not concentrate' is probably code for flying off his nut on crack / crystal meth / some psychoactive speedy trippy substance.

If he had mental health problems, they'd have just medicated him so he slept and brought him to court fairly sedated. If he was psychiatrically unwell, ie psychotic or such, they'd have explained this is on medical grounds.

 

[rightsaidfred]

Drugs, probably. Let's not forget there's more dreadful quality drugs flooding places like Belmarsh than there even is on the street. 'Up all night and could not concentrate' is probably code for flying off his nut on crack / crystal meth / some psychoactive speedy trippy substance.

If he had mental health problems, they'd have just medicated him so he slept and brought him to court fairly sedated. If he was psychiatrically unwell, ie psychotic or such, they'd have explained this is on medical grounds.

I'm midway through reading A Bit Of A Stretch by Chris Atkins, which are his diaries of his time in HMP Wandsworth - worth reading.

While prisons are absolutely awash with drugs (especially Spice), I think it's rather optimistic to think that mental health is always adequately managed - let alone properly treated - in prison.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I'm midway through reading A Bit Of A Stretch by Chris Atkins, which are his diaries of his time in HMP Wandsworth - worth reading.

While prisons are absolutely awash with drugs (especially Spice), I think it's rather optimistic to think that mental health is always adequately managed - let alone properly treated - in prison.

Definitely. We can't manage it in schools, or everyday life so I can't imagine how far down prisoners come in that almost non existent pile.
From personal experience, it's not a priority. A young friend of my nephew's was arrested for shoplifting. He was Stark naked, rambling, had a history of mental illness and was clearly not OK. He told them he would kill himself as soon as they left him alone, and he did, he was dead by the second day of remand. He never should have been there in the first place, but there was nowhere suitable to take him.

 

[bobbymkii]

They've been in court again this morning for another mention hearing. They seem to be having a lot of these for this case, sometimes with both of them, sometimes with only one of them.

Central Criminal Court​	12​	T20237104​	Constance Marten Mark Alton Gordon​
Details: For Mention (Defendant to Attend) - Case Started - 10:17 For Mention (Defendant to Attend) - Case to be listed on 12-Oct-2023 - 10:25

 

[Skigh]

Constance Marten and her lover chat in the dock during trial

Marten, 36, and Gordon, 49, sparked a huge police hunt after they went on the run with their newborn baby in January this year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Aristocrat Constance Marten and boyfriend Mark Gordon chatted in the dock as they appeared together today at the Old Bailey accused of killing their baby and leaving her in a shed.

Marten, 36, and Gordon, 49, sparked a huge police hunt after they went on the run with their newborn baby in January this year.

Baby Victoria was later found dead in a plastic bag in a shed under a heap of nappies on a Brighton allotment.

Marten and Gordon appeared at the Old Bailey today for an update on legal representation.

Marten wore a white blouse and black trousers with red lipstick and a red hairclip.

She smiled lovingly at Gordon as he was brought into the dock wearing a grey tracksuit and a green skull cap.

He sat next to her and they began to chat before being told to move and sit on the other side of the dock officer.

They continued to talk throughout the hearing.

Gordon does not currently have legal representation.

He told the court: 'Thank you my lordship, I was wondering if this hearing could potentially be adjourned until I have a solicitor instructed and they could partake in what is happening right now.

'I've approached a few solicitors and should have one within a day or so.

'I think this matter is so serious it shouldn't go ahead without me being represented.'

Marten became angry with the dock officer saying that she also needed to speak to the judge.

 

[Alyce]

From Skigh's link above


Judge Mark Lucraft, KC, the Recorder of London, set a new hearing date
for an application to dismiss charges on October 12.