UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[Obergine]

"
Andreas Marnerides, a consultant in paediatric pathology, told jurors he could not say exactly how old Victoria was from her foot length and other parameters.

She could have been two, four or six weeks old, he said.

Mr Marnerides added: “I cannot use a specific set of measurements to say, specially with this degree of decomposition, the baby must have been two weeks.”

 

[Cardgame]

Is anyone familiar with the purpose of wardship?

Constance Marten trial: aristocrat ‘posed as Irish Traveller’

All four of her older children were put up for adoption because of fears of physical violence between her and Mark Gordon, court has been told

www.thetimes.co.uk

According to google:

Through a wardship the court will have the legal responsibility over a child. By making a child a ward of court no orders concerning a child can be made, and neither can any action be taken which would affect the child unless ordered by the court or the courts permission is sought.

What would the intention of doing something like this be, from a family point of view? Would this be something you would do if you suspect neglect but cannot make contact with the family member? Or is the ultimate hope that the child's care will be handed over to you, if you apply?

 

[InstantCoffee]

Dr Nat Cary told the Old Bailey on Thursday that baby Victoria was wearing just a nappy and had signs of “significant decomposition” when he examined her.

Has it been mentioned before that Victoria was only wearing a nappy? I think this is very strange... either she was only in a nappy when she died (which is unthinkable in a tent in winter) or she was taken out of whatever she was wearing after death. Is this perhaps so that it can't be seen that her clothing was completely inadequate?
Unless they are trying (once again) to cover something up, you would naturally expect her to be wearing what she died in. And I think from a respectful POV if the child you love has died, you surely still want them to look as comfortable as possible. Our whole culture around death is to present the person looking as peaceful and as cared for as possible. I mean, we choose outfits for them! Add in the Lidl bag with soil on top as well and it makes for unfathomable behaviour.

 

[Amaz0nia]

Is anyone familiar with the purpose of wardship?

Constance Marten trial: aristocrat ‘posed as Irish Traveller’

All four of her older children were put up for adoption because of fears of physical violence between her and Mark Gordon, court has been told

www.thetimes.co.uk

According to google:

Through a wardship the court will have the legal responsibility over a child. By making a child a ward of court no orders concerning a child can be made, and neither can any action be taken which would affect the child unless ordered by the court or the courts permission is sought.

What would the intention of doing something like this be, from a family point of view? Would this be something you would do if you suspect neglect but cannot make contact with the family member? Or is the ultimate hope that the child's care will be handed over to you, if you apply?

I wonder if it would also allow the family to offer future financial, educational & other support to those children, even if they were not directly involved in their day to day care. Just a thought

 

[Obergine]

Dr Nat Cary told the Old Bailey on Thursday that baby Victoria was wearing just a nappy and had signs of “significant decomposition” when he examined her.

Has it been mentioned before that Victoria was only wearing a nappy? I think this is very strange... either she was only in a nappy when she died (which is unthinkable in a tent in winter) or she was taken out of whatever she was wearing after death. Is this perhaps so that it can't be seen that her clothing was completely inadequate?
Unless they are trying (once again) to cover something up, you would naturally expect her to be wearing what she died in. And I think from a respectful POV if the child you love has died, you surely still want them to look as comfortable as possible. Our whole culture around death is to present the person looking as peaceful and as cared for as possible. I mean, we choose outfits for them! Add in the Lidl bag with soil on top as well and it makes for unfathomable behaviour.

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Cardgame]

Dr Nat Cary told the Old Bailey on Thursday that baby Victoria was wearing just a nappy and had signs of “significant decomposition” when he examined her.

Has it been mentioned before that Victoria was only wearing a nappy? I think this is very strange... either she was only in a nappy when she died (which is unthinkable in a tent in winter) or she was taken out of whatever she was wearing after death. Is this perhaps so that it can't be seen that her clothing was completely inadequate?
Unless they are trying (once again) to cover something up, you would naturally expect her to be wearing what she died in. And I think from a respectful POV if the child you love has died, you surely still want them to look as comfortable as possible. Our whole culture around death is to present the person looking as peaceful and as cared for as possible. I mean, we choose outfits for them! Add in the Lidl bag with soil on top as well and it makes for unfathomable behaviour.

In the podcast of CM's interview, she states that she undressed the baby and wrapped her in a black blanket. It states:

"She said she thought she had held Victoria for three or four hours after she had died, but Mark Gordon said she had to say goodbye. DC Garvey then asked what the couple did next.

Speaker 1
24:29
I put her, I wrapped her in a... I took her clothes off her, and then I kept her nappy on. I didn't really want to change. That would have been just a bit much. So I wrapped her. I had a black scarf, and I wrapped it around her.

And then I put her in the bag. Pink. It's not a particularly nice bag, so...

...the only bag we had available. Is it Asda? I don't know, one of those shops. I'm not sure. A pink bag."

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-painted-as-villains-01hq3n209eyk7x4k1494cwxrkz

The blanket was found with her body according to news reports:

• two baby nappies
• a pink baby blanket
• cardboard
• leaves
• general rubbish
• a black blanket
• a can of Budweiser beer
• two coke cans
• two Hollingbury Golf Club scorecards
• a glass water bottle refilled with petrol purchased at a Texaco garage on January 12 2023
• two torn Argos carrier bags
• one WH Smith bag
• several pages of The Sun newspaper dated January 12 2023
• an egg mayonnaise and cress sandwich package

14 things inside same Lidl bag as Constance Marten's baby - including beer can

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon spent almost two months on the run with their newborn daughter Victoria, before they were arrested, and her body later found in a red Lidl bag stashed in an unused shed

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Obergine]

Jeez. I treated dead goldfish better.

 

[Nikynoo]

Exactly what I was thinking.

IIRC Victoria was wrapped in a shawl/scarf (I think maybe the red one worn in cctv?ETA it was a black blanket. ). Any clothing may have been removed post death or she was only in a nappy because she was inside the coat? Maybe CM was doing the skin to skin thing whilst feeding?

 

[Cardgame]

Dr Nat Cary told the Old Bailey on Thursday that baby Victoria was wearing just a nappy and had signs of “significant decomposition” when he examined her.

Has it been mentioned before that Victoria was only wearing a nappy? I think this is very strange... either she was only in a nappy when she died (which is unthinkable in a tent in winter) or she was taken out of whatever she was wearing after death. Is this perhaps so that it can't be seen that her clothing was completely inadequate?
Unless they are trying (once again) to cover something up, you would naturally expect her to be wearing what she died in. And I think from a respectful POV if the child you love has died, you surely still want them to look as comfortable as possible. Our whole culture around death is to present the person looking as peaceful and as cared for as possible. I mean, we choose outfits for them! Add in the Lidl bag with soil on top as well and it makes for unfathomable behaviour.

It has been mentioned (see above) but I agree with you that I don't find the explanation convincing.

IMO, if my baby had died and I wanted to 'prepare' her for burial, I would
A) definitely change the nappy if it needed changing
B) dress her in clothes so that at least emotionally she felt 'warm'

Perhaps, as with so many things apparently, CM had her own ideas about what was 'culturally appropriate'.

Or perhaps there was some reason why they wanted to dispose of the clothes the baby died in.

 

[Alyce]

In the podcast of CM's interview, she states that she undressed the baby and wrapped her in a black blanket. It states:

"She said she thought she had held Victoria for three or four hours after she had died, but Mark Gordon said she had to say goodbye. DC Garvey then asked what the couple did next.

Speaker 1
24:29
I put her, I wrapped her in a... I took her clothes off her, and then I kept her nappy on. I didn't really want to change. That would have been just a bit much. So I wrapped her. I had a black scarf, and I wrapped it around her.

And then I put her in the bag. Pink. It's not a particularly nice bag, so...

...the only bag we had available. Is it Asda? I don't know, one of those shops. I'm not sure. A pink bag."

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-painted-as-villains-01hq3n209eyk7x4k1494cwxrkz

The blanket was found with her body according to news reports:

• two baby nappies
• a pink baby blanket
• cardboard
• leaves
• general rubbish
• a black blanket
• a can of Budweiser beer
• two coke cans
• two Hollingbury Golf Club scorecards
• a glass water bottle refilled with petrol purchased at a Texaco garage on January 12 2023
• two torn Argos carrier bags
• one WH Smith bag
• several pages of The Sun newspaper dated January 12 2023
• an egg mayonnaise and cress sandwich package

14 things inside same Lidl bag as Constance Marten's baby - including beer can

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon spent almost two months on the run with their newborn daughter Victoria, before they were arrested, and her body later found in a red Lidl bag stashed in an unused shed

www.mirror.co.uk

snipped for focus from above

CMs statement

I put her, I wrapped her in a... I took her clothes off her, and then I kept her nappy on. I didn't really want to change. That would have been just a bit much. So I wrapped her. I had a black scarf, and I wrapped it around her


So it's ok to take her clothes off - but hey, not going to clean up the nappy, too much hassle to do that - and anyway we're going to pop her in a bag with all our other refuse, so no big deal.

And this is a great mother, according to MG . My cats get better treatment when they die

 

[Schlitze]

What has Mark Gordon got on his head in the court sketch?

 

[Alyce]

It has been mentioned (see above) but I agree with you that I don't find the explanation convincing.

IMO, if my baby had died and I wanted to 'prepare' her for burial, I would
A) definitely change the nappy if it needed changing
B) dress her in clothes so that at least emotionally she felt 'warm'

Perhaps, as with so many things apparently, CM had her own ideas about what was 'culturally appropriate'.

Or perhaps there was some reason why they wanted to dispose of the clothes the baby died in.

yes, very possibly.

 

[Alyce]

What has Mark Gordon got on his head in the court sketch?

A court artist sketch of Mark Gordon, with a grey jumper over his head,

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon face trial over baby death

An aristocrat and her partner are facing an Old Bailey trial over the death of their baby daughter early next year.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk

 

[rightsaidfred]

Is anyone familiar with the purpose of wardship?

Constance Marten trial: aristocrat ‘posed as Irish Traveller’

All four of her older children were put up for adoption because of fears of physical violence between her and Mark Gordon, court has been told

www.thetimes.co.uk

According to google:

Through a wardship the court will have the legal responsibility over a child. By making a child a ward of court no orders concerning a child can be made, and neither can any action be taken which would affect the child unless ordered by the court or the courts permission is sought.

What would the intention of doing something like this be, from a family point of view? Would this be something you would do if you suspect neglect but cannot make contact with the family member? Or is the ultimate hope that the child's care will be handed over to you, if you apply?

I can't read the article as it's all behind a paywall, but I presume you're referring to

Jurors were told that Ms Marten’s father had previously initiated legal proceedings to apply for a wardship of the children.

Constance Marten warned about sleeping in tent with her other baby, court told

Jurors were told Marten and Gordon’s four other children had been taken into care after a judge concluded an instance of domestic violence had taken place

www.independent.co.uk

Is there any more detail in the Times article?

A bit of googling suggests it's rarely been used since 1989, so it's an odd pathway to take.

This link suggests it's normally used for

Orders to restrain publicity.
Orders to prevent an undesirable association.
Orders relating to medical treatment.
Orders to protect abducted children, or cases where there is substantial foreign element; and
Orders for the return of children to and from another state.

Wardship of the Court

Is your child being made a Wardship of the Court? Arrange FREE consultation today for legal advice on how you can best deal with this.

www.kabirfamilylaw.co.uk

None of them seem to apply here.

Perhaps it was a last ditch roll of the dice when he'd failed to get them taken into foster care, or an SGO?

 

[Alyce]

2:51pm




Dr Marniredes has been released from the dock.

Judge Mark Lucraft, presiding over the case, has just chastised Gordon for talking in the dock.

Updates as Constance Marten trial continues with baby's post-mortem

Live updates as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[Cardgame]

I can't read the article as it's all behind a paywall, but I presume you're referring to

Constance Marten warned about sleeping in tent with her other baby, court told

Jurors were told Marten and Gordon’s four other children had been taken into care after a judge concluded an instance of domestic violence had taken place

www.independent.co.uk

Is there any more detail in the Times article?

A bit of googling suggests it's rarely been used since 1989, so it's an odd pathway to take.

This link suggests it's normally used for

Orders to restrain publicity.
Orders to prevent an undesirable association.
Orders relating to medical treatment.
Orders to protect abducted children, or cases where there is substantial foreign element; and
Orders for the return of children to and from another state.

Wardship of the Court

Is your child being made a Wardship of the Court? Arrange FREE consultation today for legal advice on how you can best deal with this.

www.kabirfamilylaw.co.uk

None of them seem to apply here.

Perhaps it was a last ditch roll of the dice when he'd failed to get them taken into foster care, or an SGO?

Maybe number two?

To prevent an undesirable Association?

THinking of MG's past convictions.

 

[Cardgame]

3:07pm

The jury has been shown CCTV of Marten and Gordon from earlier in the trial.

 

[rightsaidfred]

Maybe number two?

To prevent an undesirable Association?

THinking of MG's past convictions.

Bit of a stretch, he's the father and he had parental responsibility.

For undesirable associations, I was thinking more of gang associations or other equally malign influences.

But I'm not a lawyer!

 

[Kingsley]

Dr Nat Cary told the Old Bailey on Thursday that baby Victoria was wearing just a nappy and had signs of “significant decomposition” when he examined her.

Has it been mentioned before that Victoria was only wearing a nappy? I think this is very strange... either she was only in a nappy when she died (which is unthinkable in a tent in winter) or she was taken out of whatever she was wearing after death. Is this perhaps so that it can't be seen that her clothing was completely inadequate?
Unless they are trying (once again) to cover something up, you would naturally expect her to be wearing what she died in. And I think from a respectful POV if the child you love has died, you surely still want them to look as comfortable as possible. Our whole culture around death is to present the person looking as peaceful and as cared for as possible. I mean, we choose outfits for them! Add in the Lidl bag with soil on top as well and it makes for unfathomable behaviour.

After our horse died, we placed his blanket over the top of him in his grave before they covered it with dirt. It just felt right to send him off with something that kept him warm and cozy in life. Their treatment of V's body is just so very wrong in every respect.

 

[Smccat]

3:49pm

Joel Smith KC, prosecuting, says that the majority of the prosecution's case has now been heard.
From 12pm tomorrow the defence will begin.
The jury has been released for the day.