UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[Nikynoo]

MG could have gone and withdrawn cash from some distance away then returned and booked a room just for him. CM & baby could have been snuck in after. People were unlikely to have recognised MG alone.

Would have worked in a big city, but I am not sure about Brighton.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Do shops and post office counters still do that 'Western Union' transfer type payment? From what I've been told (which may be wholly incorrect in the here and now) this is the perfect way to pay someone or transfer money without it being traceable. You hand cash over the counter and it's electronically credited to the recipient.

Surely CM could have took a chunk of money from somewhere in one location, paid for a month in a cabin or camper van or air bnb in a different location and given them breathing space and warmth and security?

JMO MOO

 

[rightsaidfred]

Once the publicity got to a certain level, it may have seemed like almost any option was too high risk.

What's to stop a taxi driver locking the doors and driving them to a local police station? Given their MO I'm sure police contacted every taxi firm in the south east, and there was a reward (£10k?) at one point which would surely motivate any taxi driver.

Buying a car or camper van would have meant that they started pinging ANPR and we're more likely to be caught that way. Even on false plates, you're still going to ping.

Public transport would have been too, well, public. Later on, smelling as they did, they would have attracted attention, especially if they took her body with them.

Plus the whole endeavour probably felt like it was pointless once Victoria died, which was not long after they arrived on the south coast.

 

[Obergine]

I've been pondering 'tent life' and I'm not sure many people do live in tents in the UK winter with the exception of the desperately vulnerable and homeless. It's a completely abnormal concept IMO and I think we've all been slid into the idea that resorting to a tent was quite a rational and normal consequence of being on the run. But it isn't!? Surely not?

The couple made a long sequence of decision in order to end up on the streets and that included, towards the thinnest end of the wedge, *choosing* not to pay cash for some form of cheap accommodation such as a parked up van.

The thing that strikes me as worst about a small flimsy tent is not only does it provide barely any shelter at all but it's got absolute zero security from any form of attack by humans or animals. One thing for an adult to decide this for themselves but quite another for a newborn.

JMO MOO

Surely no-one lives in a tent by choice. A yurt yes but not a tent. And in adverse weather homeless charities employ swep to get people into warm accommodation to help prevent deaths: Severe Weather Emergency Protocols (SWEP) – Housing Justice

 

[Obergine]

Once the publicity got to a certain level, it may have seemed like almost any option was too high risk.

What's to stop a taxi driver locking the doors and driving them to a local police station? Given their MO I'm sure police contacted every taxi firm in the south east, and there was a reward (£10k?) at one point which would surely motivate any taxi driver.

Buying a car or camper van would have meant that they started pinging ANPR and we're more likely to be caught that way. Even on false plates, you're still going to ping.

Public transport would have been too, well, public. Later on, smelling as they did, they would have attracted attention, especially if they took her body with them.

Plus the whole endeavour probably felt like it was pointless once Victoria died, which was not long after they arrived on the south coast.

I also think V died quite early on and that they may have handed themselves earlier if she hadn't

 

[rockthecasbah]

In the podcast of CM's interview, she states that she undressed the baby and wrapped her in a black blanket. It states:

"She said she thought she had held Victoria for three or four hours after she had died, but Mark Gordon said she had to say goodbye. DC Garvey then asked what the couple did next.

Speaker 1
24:29
I put her, I wrapped her in a... I took her clothes off her, and then I kept her nappy on. I didn't really want to change. That would have been just a bit much. So I wrapped her. I had a black scarf, and I wrapped it around her.

And then I put her in the bag. Pink. It's not a particularly nice bag, so...

...the only bag we had available. Is it Asda? I don't know, one of those shops. I'm not sure. A pink bag."

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-painted-as-villains-01hq3n209eyk7x4k1494cwxrkz

The blanket was found with her body according to news reports:

• two baby nappies
• a pink baby blanket
• cardboard
• leaves
• general rubbish
• a

Once the publicity got to a certain level, it may have seemed like almost any option was too high risk.

What's to stop a taxi driver locking the doors and driving them to a local police station? Given their MO I'm sure police contacted every taxi firm in the south east, and there was a reward (£10k?) at one point which would surely motivate any taxi driver.

Buying a car or camper van would have meant that they started pinging ANPR and we're more likely to be caught that way. Even on false plates, you're still going to ping.

Public transport would have been too, well, public. Later on, smelling as they did, they would have attracted attention, especially if they took her body with them.

Plus the whole endeavour probably felt like it was pointless once Victoria died, which was not long after they arrived on the south coast.

They went to a food bank IIRC although sounded like they weren't recognised until afterwards. I wish a taxi driver had.

 

[Nikynoo]

no live link from the Argus today?

 

[DavidAT]

I've been pondering 'tent life' and I'm not sure many people do live in tents in the UK winter with the exception of the desperately vulnerable and homeless. It's a completely abnormal concept IMO and I think we've all been slid into the idea that resorting to a tent was quite a rational and normal consequence of being on the run. But it isn't!? Surely not?

The couple made a long sequence of decision in order to end up on the streets and that included, towards the thinnest end of the wedge, *choosing* not to pay cash for some form of cheap accommodation such as a parked up van.

The thing that strikes me as worst about a small flimsy tent is not only does it provide barely any shelter at all but it's got absolute zero security from any form of attack by humans or animals. One thing for an adult to decide this for themselves but quite another for a newborn.

JMO MOO

A tent gives you much more mobility and also greater scope for hiding than a van. How safe a tent is from attack depends mostly on where it is, not whether it's a one-skinner, double-skinner, or made of polyester or canvas. A tent was quite a good choice, security-wise, given the big security problems they'd have had doing most normal everyday things.

Their big mistake I think was not to prepare for the unexpected by leaving the country earlier, no later than when she was about 5-6 months pregnant, so that she could give birth abroad. It's reasonable to suppose that nobody could have foreseen the car would go on fire, but had they moved earlier they would have had more time to cope with such accidents.

It's a bit of a mystery how money continued to be drawn from cash machines, and if we assume the police who had a lot of manpower weren't utterly incompetent on that score, then presumably they'd found a relatively secure procedure. Add that to how the owner or tenant of the allotment hasn't been identified publicly.

Goodness knows what her relationship with her parents is. This could have been a factor in various decisions and could still be a factor in what might happen. (E.g. will her mother come to court if CM gives evidence?) What was she doing carrying those notes around about how someone thought she was a "bad girl" etc.? Would have been better to put all that behind her and to concentrate on the job to hand as if it were a military operation.

IMO

 

[Cardgame]

Once the publicity got to a certain level, it may have seemed like almost any option was too high risk.

What's to stop a taxi driver locking the doors and driving them to a local police station? Given their MO I'm sure police contacted every taxi firm in the south east, and there was a reward (£10k?) at one point which would surely motivate any taxi driver.

Buying a car or camper van would have meant that they started pinging ANPR and we're more likely to be caught that way. Even on false plates, you're still going to ping.

Public transport would have been too, well, public. Later on, smelling as they did, they would have attracted attention, especially if they took her body with them.

Plus the whole endeavour probably felt like it was pointless once Victoria died, which was not long after they arrived on the south coast.

IMO once the baby died, their motive for being on the run changed. They were no longer escaping social services, they were hiding a body.

 

[DavidAT]

They went to a food bank IIRC although sounded like they weren't recognised until afterwards. I wish a taxi driver had.

Foodbank: odd how the jurors have seen film of them outside the golf club building and heard a witness who heard noise in the woods, but they haven't seen film of them going to the food bank or heard from witnesses who worked there. What supplies did they take? Were they carrying a bag? Was there a smell? That might possibly help give a view on the date of death. It'd certainly help with their movements. Did they keep glancing at cameras? What were the first and last dates they visited?

 

[rightsaidfred]

I also think V died quite early on and that they may have handed themselves earlier if she hadn't

My feeling is that they wouldn't have handed themselves in.

Why would they, if they knew they'd lose Victoria that very second? The whole endeavour would have been pointless.

I think they would have kept running, waited for the publicity to die down, and then re-emerged with false identities, or have left the country. Plenty of people go missing and are never found. Often the assumption is that they're dead, but they occasionally turn up alive. John Darwin (of canoe fame) is perhaps one of the more famous; he even got a passport in a false name (and who's to know what happened to Lord Lucan!). They were estranged from everyone, who was to notice they were even missing? As with the case of Margaret Fleming, it can be a long time before anyone notices.

Then, perhaps, in their fantasy, re-emerge years down the line with a healthy, happy Victoria and a younger sibling or two, thus showing the world that they were right all along. At last! Evidence that the problem all along was SS and CM's family.

But no one was ever meant to know that Victoria existed; the car fire is the only reason we ever knew, and it was a sliding doors moment.

If they'd lived as home schooling, anti vaxxer parents whose child remained robustly healthy and never needed medical treatment, would anyone ever have noticed that the child didn't have a birth certificate? How often are parents actually asked for their birth certificate? (Genuine question, I'm not a parent, so I don't know).

Of course it's a fantasy, and the reality is that history would have repeated itself from their time with baby FF, GG and HH, but it's a fantasy I could see them concocting in their heads.

MOO

 

[Nikynoo]

A tent gives you much more mobility and also greater scope for hiding than a van. How safe a tent is from attack depends mostly on where it is, not whether it's a one-skinner, double-skinner, or made of polyester or canvas. A tent was quite a good choice, security-wise, given the big security problems they'd have had doing most normal everyday things.

Their big mistake I think was not to prepare for the unexpected by leaving the country earlier, no later than when she was about 5-6 months pregnant, so that she could give birth abroad. It's reasonable to suppose that nobody could have foreseen the car would go on fire, but had they moved earlier they would have had more time to cope with such accidents.

It's a bit of a mystery how money continued to be drawn from cash machines, and if we assume the police who had a lot of manpower weren't utterly incompetent on that score, then presumably they'd found a relatively secure procedure. Add that to how the owner or tenant of the allotment hasn't been identified publicly.

Goodness knows what her relationship with her parents is. This could have been a factor in various decisions and could still be a factor in what might happen. (E.g. will her mother come to court if CM gives evidence?) What was she doing carrying those notes around about how someone thought she was a "bad girl" etc.? Would have been better to put all that behind her and to concentrate on the job to hand as if it were a military operation.

IMO

there were no cash withdrawals after the 5th January until the day they were apprehended.
Re the notes, the little bits i did see, sounds very much like someone having a mental breakdown and trying to make sense of their life.

 

[rightsaidfred]

Court 5T20237104
CONSTANCE MARTEN
MARK ALTON GORDON
Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 11:53

No live link that I can find as yet

 

[Nikynoo]

IMO once the baby died, their motive for being on the run changed. They were no longer escaping social services, they were hiding a body.

But, would they just not bury the body and move somehwere else to blend in? It wouldn't have lasted long as MG was already in breach of SRO requirements, but still, burying the body would be the best way to hide it.

 

[Nikynoo]

Foodbank: odd how the jurors have seen film of them outside the golf club building and heard a witness who heard noise in the woods, but they haven't seen film of them going to the food bank or heard from witnesses who worked there. What supplies did they take? Were they carrying a bag? Was there a smell? That might possibly help give a view on the date of death. It'd certainly help with their movements. Did they keep glancing at cameras? What were the first and last dates they visited?

I think you need to remember that not all of the proceedings have been reported, it may have been presented to the jury but just not reported.

 

[Nikynoo]

My feeling is that they wouldn't have handed themselves in.

Why would they, if they knew they'd lose Victoria that very second? The whole endeavour would have been pointless.

I think they would have kept running, waited for the publicity to die down, and then re-emerged with false identities, or have left the country. Plenty of people go missing and are never found. Often the assumption is that they're dead, but they occasionally turn up alive. John Darwin (of canoe fame) is perhaps one of the more famous; he even got a passport in a false name (and who's to know what happened to Lord Lucan!). They were estranged from everyone, who was to notice they were even missing? As with the case of Margaret Fleming, it can be a long time before anyone notices.

Then, perhaps, in their fantasy, re-emerge years down the line with a healthy, happy Victoria and a younger sibling or two, thus showing the world that they were right all along. At last! Evidence that the problem all along was SS and CM's family.

But no one was ever meant to know that Victoria existed; the car fire is the only reason we ever knew, and it was a sliding doors moment.

If they'd lived as home schooling, anti vaxxer parents whose child remained robustly healthy and never needed medical treatment, would anyone ever have noticed that the child didn't have a birth certificate? How often are parents actually asked for their birth certificate? (Genuine question, I'm not a parent, so I don't know).

Of course it's a fantasy, and the reality is that history would have repeated itself from their time with baby FF, GG and HH, but it's a fantasy I could see them concocting in their heads.

MOO

You need money for this and CM would have needed to access her bank and/or trust fund which would have led to their whereabouts being revealed.

 

[DavidAT]

Once the publicity got to a certain level, it may have seemed like almost any option was too high risk.

What's to stop a taxi driver locking the doors and driving them to a local police station? Given their MO I'm sure police contacted every taxi firm in the south east, and there was a reward (£10k?) at one point which would surely motivate any taxi driver.

Buying a car or camper van would have meant that they started pinging ANPR and we're more likely to be caught that way. Even on false plates, you're still going to ping.

Public transport would have been too, well, public. Later on, smelling as they did, they would have attracted attention, especially if they took her body with them.

Plus the whole endeavour probably felt like it was pointless once Victoria died, which was not long after they arrived on the south coast.

Their 4 options were disposing of the body and revealing themselves, or doing the opposite of one or both of these.

Hiding while keeping the body was perhaps the least sensible option. (Although of course we don't know how Victoria died, whereas they do. Let's assume CM is telling the truth about how the death occurred.)

It's extremely easy to dispose of a small body. The fact they didn't shows emotions were involved, IMO. Which perhaps isn't such a brilliant observation. They probably felt as if they were in limbo.

 

[EricAcaciaAvenue]

But, would they just not bury the body and move somehwere else to blend in? It wouldn't have lasted long as MG was already in breach of SRO requirements, but still, burying the body would be the best way to hide it.

Yes, the most cynical thing to do would to be bury the body with some degree of ceremony to make it look like you really cared (but somewhere sufficiently remote it wouldn't be found for a long time) then to go on the run for a bit (separately, much less likely to be noticed).

 

[rightsaidfred]

You need money for this and CM would have needed to access her bank and/or trust fund which would have led to their whereabouts being revealed.

I don't think CM has ever been troubled by the practicalities, to be honest.

She had money each month.

Before the car fire, 'all' she needed to do was make sure no one made the connection between the CM that was withdrawing money each month, and the "Arabella Smith" (or whatever her next name was going to be) who homeschools her child. A double life of sorts - one for paperwork, and one for the neighbours and any other social contacts.

Of course the second there was a car fire, people realised there was a baby and it belonged to CM.

Would we ever have known about the baby if it wasn't for the car fire? I have my doubts.

Even after the car fire, I suspect the belief was that eventually the police would give up looking, move it to the cold case pile, and move on. There's enough missing kids in that pile. Wait for interest to die down, then find somewhere to rent and hope no one asked too many questions about the baby's birth certificate.

It was never going to work out in practice. Their history with the previous babies showed us that they couldn't manage even the most basic standard of parenting despite all the resources in the world. Someone would always have called SS. But I'm sure they wouldn't admit that to themselves - in their mind, it's always someone else's fault.

 

[rockthecasbah]

My feeling is that they wouldn't have handed themselves in.

Why would they, if they knew they'd lose Victoria that very second? The whole endeavour would have been pointless.

I think they would have kept running, waited for the publicity to die down, and then re-emerged with false identities, or have left the country. Plenty of people go missing and are never found. Often the assumption is that they're dead, but they occasionally turn up alive. John Darwin (of canoe fame) is perhaps one of the more famous; he even got a passport in a false name (and who's to know what happened to Lord Lucan!). They were estranged from everyone, who was to notice they were even missing? As with the case of Margaret Fleming, it can be a long time before anyone notices.

Then, perhaps, in their fantasy, re-emerge years down the line with a healthy, happy Victoria and a younger sibling or two, thus showing the world that they were right all along. At last! Evidence that the problem all along was SS and CM's family.

But no one was ever meant to know that Victoria existed; the car fire is the only reason we ever knew, and it was a sliding doors moment.

If they'd lived as home schooling, anti vaxxer parents whose child remained robustly healthy and never needed medical treatment, would anyone ever have noticed that the child didn't have a birth certificate? How often are parents actually asked for their birth certificate? (Genuine question, I'm not a parent, so I don't know).

Of course it's a fantasy, and the reality is that history would have repeated itself from their time with baby FF, GG and HH, but it's a fantasy I could see them concocting in their heads.

MOO

Birth certificate- required for starting school, registering with GP, getting passport obviously. Child benefit maybe?