UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #401
  • #402
Probably going to mention some conspiracy theories.
 
  • #403
I'm updating my timeline again, now we're just about at the end of the prosecution. New changes in bold. If I've missed anything let me know so I can edit it in.

- 1974 - MG born in Birmingham, the youngest of 7 children, to mum Sylvia
- ~1985 - MG, 11, and family move to Hollywood, Florida
- 26th May 1987 - CM born, lives at Crichel Down, a stately home in Dorset. Her parents are Napier and Virginie Marten (nee Camu, later de Selliers)
- 1989 - MG convicted of rape, age 14
- 1996 - Napier Marten, CM's father, leaves the family, heads to Australia, and leaves behind his 'materialistic' life. He variously has an out-of-body experience with Aborigines, goes whale watching, lives in a lorry, works as a chef and trains in Indian head massage. Unknown when he returned to the UK, but it's 2013 at the latest.
- 2005 (presumed) - CM leaves school - St Mary's Shaftesbury.
- 6-18 months in 2006-7 (dates unclear, reports vary) - CM joins TB Joshua's SCOAN cult in Nigeria, which is later linked to sex abuse. Friends report she's not the same afterwards.
- 2008 - CM starts studying Arabic and Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Leeds
- Jan 2009 - CM listed as Tatler 'Babe of the Month'
- 2010 - MG released after 20 years and deported to UK
- 2010-11 - CM on a year abroad in Cairo, studying Arabic. She was, presumably, there when the Arab Spring / Egyptian Revolution happened in Cairo in Jan-Feb 2011. A friend, Noisette Tahoun, she met during this time, and stayed in touch with afterwards, later suggests she had a history of unhealthy relationships, referring to a relationship with a "vulgar" man, and that "when she falls in love she doesn't listen to anyone". It's unclear who or when this vulgar man was.
- 2012 - CM graduates from Leeds with a 2:1
- Aug 2012-June 2013 - CM works as a researcher for Al Jazeera in London, and pitches an idea for a documentary about TB Joshua
- 2013 - CM's childhood stately home at Crichel Down is sold. CM's father reported to be working as a tree surgeon, having passed the estate on early to his eldest son. At the time of CM's disappearance, he is reported to be a film and music producer.
- June-2013-14 - CM works in three short term jobs, two lasting less than a month and one lasting three months; appears to be out of work
- 2014 - CM does a NCTJ course in court reporting. I think this is possible a MOOC rather than anything terribly in depth.
- 2016 - CM leaves E15 Acting School and is listed as a graduate. It is unclear what year she started in - it could have been a second BA starting in 2013 (which would explain her work history) or an MA starting 2015.
- 2016 - CM and MG meet in a shop. MG is reported to live near her and be working as a labourer. CM rapidly starts to cut off family and friends.
- Approximately 2017 - CM and MG marry in Peru, but claim that this marriage was not recognised in the UK. No proof of this marriage is produced, nor whether it was a marriage legally recognised in Peru.
- June 2017 - CM pregnant, presents at a hospital in London, seeking antenatal care for the first time, says she's living in a campervan
- Sept 2017 - SS issues an alert because they can't locate her
- unspecified time later, it emerges they are living, while pregnant, in a flimsy festival-style tent with black bin bags containing clothing and bottles of urine. The social worker who saw it described it as bowing under the rainwater and smelling stale. CM told SS that living in a tent had been her idea, and that she had nappies and babygrows, but was informed that this was insufficient. She was told to arrange housing, and that if she didn't a court order would be sought. CM promised to arrange for housing and state benefits.
- late 2017 - CM goes to a hospital in Wales in early labour, fake Irish accent, claims to be a traveller called Isabella O'Brien, and living in a campervan nearby. She says she lives in Leeds but is avoiding her family. MG pretends to be a friend, Mr Aymer, borrowing a surname from CM's sister-in-law. CM later says she posed as a traveller because she thought this would mean she'd get social housing.
- Supervision order made, allowing CM and MG to care for the baby under the supervision of SS, and CM and the first baby (FF) go into "a number of" mother and baby foster care placements. CM warned twice about the danger of falling asleep with baby on her.
- 2018 - FF's interim care order is discharged
- Late 2018 - GG is born in Wales, and social services become involved again
- 2019 (?) - CM falls from a window. Details are unclear, but this is later determined to be an incident of domestic violence. CM & MG also evade an investigation by SS into the wellbeing of the children.

- Jan 2020 - local authority starts care proceedings, and at the same time Napier Marten starts an application for wardship of FF and GG - it is unclear what the aim of Napier's action was, as it's a tool rarely used since 1989. CM claims in police interview that SS removed her children after MG was blamed for her falling out of a window. She also revealed that her family were involved with SS and had hired private investigators "trying to get involved with my children".
- 4 Feb 2020 - CM posts a facebook album with three children entitled "my love sprogs", with different children labelled bty / cof / dav. IMO she posted that in the hope that it would make it easier for the children to find her on social media when they're older. Many of her facebook friends express surprise that she has any children at all. One of the comments suggests that a picture is taken in Ilford, East London.
- Some point between Jan and June 2020 - baby HH is born
- June 2020 - MG and CM refuse a placement in a residential unit, so an emergency care and separation order is made for all three children.
- CM and MG have contact with all three (later four) children. They are noted to have "interacted well" at the session, but their attendance is "inconsistent", at one point going 4 months without contact. The children are affected by this, with one child described as "inconsolable" and telling staff "mummy and daddy cancelled again"
- Unknown date around this time - CM and MG are evicted from a property in Ilford.
- August 2020 - MG and CM are reported to be living on the Coldharbour Estate, Greenwich / Eltham, though it's unknown when they moved in. Neighbours report shouting, and the couple spending long periods of time elsewhere. NB: I believe the same property is variously referred to as being on the "Coldharbour Estate, Greenwich" and "in Eltham", though there is a possibility there were two homes very close together.
- May 2021 - CM is pregnant again with baby II, refuses entry to a social worker, SS arrange a scan, CM disappears and claims she's having private healthcare, but refuses to share medical records.
- II is born; the exact date is unclear. There is a court hearing regarding the care of the older children, and they are offered a video link but decide to attend in person. They are told that II is not ready to be discharged, but if they leave without II it will be recorded as an abandonment. The next day she returns to the hospital but is upset to be refused entry because she wouldn't take a covid test. She tells SS that she and MG are 'naturalists' who disagree with any medical intervention.
- August 2021, CM's brother Max Marten marries Ruth Aymer, and the wedding is featured in Vogue. CM is nowhere to be seen due to the estrangement.
- 28 Jan 2022 - care and placement orders made for all four children and they are adopted. At this point MG and CM will have known that they have lost all hope of getting those children back.
- March / April(?) 2022 CM pregnant again, conceals pregnancy
- August / September 2022 (sources differ) - MG and CM withdraw £15,000 cash, are evicted, and leave their property in Coldharbour Estate Greenwich / Eltham (they were evicted, but IMO: this coincides with when her bump started to show). They weren't paying rent, and left smoke damage and a collapsed ceiling behind them.
- September - December 2022 - live a nomadic lifestyle, staying in a series of Airbnbs. CM later claims, in police interview, that they tried not to stay in any one area for more than three days at a time, as that would give the local authority jurisdiction over Victoria. They planned to keep moving until they could find somewhere to rent in the countryside that accepted cash.
- From Sept 2022, CM starts to claim a family trust fund. On the 20th, CM requests a £300 advance on the trust fund payment, normally £2500 per month. On 30th Sept, she receives the remaining £2200.
- Oct 2022 - requests another trust fund advance.
- Nov 2022 - CM receives £1200 from a trust fund for the storage of belongings.

- 19 Dec 2022 - MG reports to a police station in Sheffield, presumably as part of his sex offender licence conditions.
- 20-26 Dec 2022 - CM & MG stay in holiday cottage in Northumberland
- 22 Dec - CM receives £15,590 from trust fund for the purchase of a car. Around this time, a further £13,596 is sent for camera equipment and a laptop, after CM said she wanted to start working again. The allowance also rises to £3400 per month. The total amount transferred to CM over this period is £47,886.
- 24 Dec 2022 - CM claims Victoria was born, though this is disputed.
- 26 Dec 2022 - MG reports to a police station in Leeds
- 28 Dec 2022 - Car, a Peugeot 206, breaks down on M61 Greater Manchester (the podcast states this was a Suzuki in M18 Yorkshire). Recovery crew think they're living in the car but don't see a baby. Car towed to Leeds.
- 3 Jan 2023 - CM receives £3400 from a different trust fund
- 4 Jan 2023 - CM & MG check into hotel in Lymm, Cheshire and then later into a different hotel in Manchester. CM withdraws £2000 cash from MetroBank - the maximum allowed. She states that this is because they want to remain untraceable.
- 5 Jan 2023 - Peugeot 206 car catches fire on the M61 near J4 Bolton. CM was driving as MG couldn't drive. Around 6.30pm CM and MG depart leaving behind a passport, placenta, 30 'burner' phones, bible, clothes, 5 used nappies, and a cat in a box. The manhunt begins. Local man called Waiwai Balai gives them a lift to Bolton city centre. 20.02 spotted on CCTV at Bolton Bus Interchange. Take a taxi from Bolton to Liverpool, then a separate taxi from near Liverpool Royal Hospital to Harwich. Speculation is that, as both Liverpool and Harwich are ports, they are trying to leave the country but are hamstrung because MG doesn't have a passport and CM lost hers in the car fire. Debit card transactions cease; CM has £19,083 in her MetroBank account.
- 6 Jan 2023 - CM and MG check in at 3am in Premier Inn Harwich. After departing, staff notice a strong odour that they liken to rotting flesh. WS speculation: this was trench foot (MG was seen with bags over his shoes) or a post partum issue (infection?) from CM. They had had consistent access to bathrooms, so simply body odour is less likely. They move to the Fryatt Hotel that night.
- 7 Jan 2023 - Check out of Fryatt Hotel in Harwich at 7am, then take a taxi to Colchester, then a taxi to East Ham, where they are seen 10.30-12.30. They take a taxi to Whitechapel Road, arriving at 6.15pm. Eat a meal at a restaurant on Brick Lane. Baby seen moving. MG buys a buggy at Argos, along with some camping gear. Try to get a taxi, fail, dump buggy, put baby in Lidl bag.
- 8 Jan 2023 - Shortly after midnight they ask taxi driver Abdirisakh Mohamud to take them to Tesco Extra Enfield. CM claims to be a Muslim using a hood and facemask as a hijab. MG claims to be doing the same because of a hair problem. The taxi driver becomes uneasy and drops the couple off prematurely on Green Lanes - presumably around the Green Lanes / Allison Road junction as they then catch another taxi, driven by Hasan Guzel, departing at 1.25am. During the journey, her phone pings and she asks to change the destination from Portsmouth to Newhaven. The baby is heard "meowing". They arrive at Newhaven at 4.56am. Seen sheltering from rain under an underpass around 6am. CM buys snacks at Texaco Newhaven. 6.15am - seen walking along Cantercrow Hill towards fields with bag and tent.
- 9-11 Jan 2023 - CM claims baby died, changing her story during questioning. CM claims she died when she was in her coat, and CM fell asleep, with the inference being that she suffocated. They both say they attempted resuscitation, but heard a "bubbling" noise from the lungs.
- Unknown date, after the baby died; CM says they discussed what to tell the police; MG told her to say it was a cot death, she was put to sleep on her front, not being held by CM, and when she woke up the baby had died.
- Unknown date / extended period: they carry the baby around in a Lidl bag, but variously claim the bag became too heavy to carry, that soil was added to mask the smell, and that they considered burying her but were too weak to dig.
- 12 Jan, just after 6am - CM purchases petrol and snacks from the same Texaco in Newhaven. She later claims this was because she considered cremating the baby.
- 19 Jan - Napier Marten issues appeal for CM to turn herself in
- 21 Jan - Karen Satchell, half sister of MG, goes to press saying he was wrongly convicted of rape
- 16 Jan 2023 - 11.45am Nicholas Frost, a dog walker sees tent and MG getting out of it at Stanmer Park Nature Reserve. It is not there a week later.
- Unknown date between 16-27 January, 10.30-2.30 - witness Sarah Hidden states she saw CM and MG in Seaford, on the path between Cuckmere Haven and South Barn car park, with them emerging from the buses. She states she was woken by a baby crying on the preceding two nights, sleeping with the windows open despite a (loud??) winter storm. She believes the sound to have been coming from around Seaford Head golf course.
- 8 Feb - Virginie de Selliers, CM's mum and a psychotherapist, issues an appeal for her to come forward
- 16/17 Feb 2023 - seen near Hollingbury Golf Course with a buggy but no baby
- 17 Feb - tent seen Coldean Lane / Stanmer Park, Brighton (Coldean Lane runs through the park). Sighting in Stanmer Park around midday by witness Mary Thomsen.
- 18 Feb - sighting of CM and MG around Coldean Lane, with CM appearing to have something under her jacket
- 19 Feb - CM and MG seen in Stanmer Park with blue tent, and a 'floppy headed' baby with no clothes. The witness, Pauline Mason, states in court that the baby was so pale she believes it was already dead. Her husband Michael Mason stated they went back later to look for evidence in bins and hedgerows, such as nappies or discarded clothing. However, they did not report the sighting until 1st March. Mr Mason also disclosed that Pauline was convinced that she saw the 1986 Babes in the Wood murder victims. WS member consensus: Pauline is not a convincing witness.
- 19 Feb - MG's mother Sylvia, who lives in Florida, goes to the papers saying he's a 'good boy', that he and CM had married in secret some time ago (no evidence of this is ever produced) and suggesting they could have been kidnapped.
- 20 Feb - CM and MG seen scavenging in bins around Hollingbury Golf Course
- 22 Feb - CM and MG attend Brighton Food Bank. They receive some food, but don't ask for baby items, which are available.
- 27 Feb 2023 - CM and MG go to Mulberry's Convenience Store and buy £20 worth of food in cash but no baby items. Shortly afterwards, they are arrested in Brighton, 9.35pm, smelling 'very unpleasant'. They refuse to tell police where the baby is.
- 1 March 2023 - Baby Victoria's remains found at the back of a disused shed in allotments off Lyncht Close, Brighton, so decomposed that the sex could not be identified visually. She is in a Lidl bag, wrapped in sheets, with cans, bottles and leaves. The post mortem finds the cause of death to be "unascertained". There is no evidence of a natural disease, congenital condition, nor injuries associated with assault. Death from hypothermia or co-sleeping is possible, but not provable or disprovable.

Sources: as before, but the additional sources for the update are as follows





Don’t know whether you want to add that time of death unascertained and age of baby at time of death was between 2 and 6 weeks.
 
  • #404
IMO the car fire wasn't a sliding doors moment, but an escalation point on the journey of their poor decision making. MG/CM want us to see it that way, 'things could have been so different', but this feeds the narrative that they are helpless victims IMO.

2 people, already living chaotically, are already making desperate and dubious choices. They have it in their heads that they must move every three days in order to escape social services. They are living off large sums of cash, which they keep all in one place, on them at all times. At some point recently, the woman has given birth, on the move, with no medical assistance. Many of their possessions are stuffed into the car with them, along with the newborn baby, who has no car seat. And lets not forget the cat!

Perhaps they haven't slept enough, potentially for days.

IMO it's entirely possible they made a desperate, poor choice, when they purchased that vehicle. Did it have paperwork? A maintenance history? Or did they buy it in a hurry for cash, because they believed they needed to keep moving?

Before the car caught fire, it had recently broken down, according to CM*. Did they check out what the problem was? Call a mechanic? Or did they just get it started again and keep driving, even with a newborn in the car?

They are representing the car fire as though it's just 'one of those things that no one could have seen coming'.

But that's also how they are representing the death of Victoria. JMO.


*"Actually, it stopped working in one of the petrol stations in
Manchester. It just wouldn't turn on. And then I kept trying to turn it on and eventually it moved. After kind of 15 minutes, the car blacked out. And then we were going down the motorway, maybe like 10 minutes from that petrol station. It just started driving very slowly, smoking. I mean, we just bought it."

 
  • #405
  • #406
I bet he’ll talk more about his legs and being treated like a dog than he will about baby Victoria.

Oh absolutely. I wonder how long before Judge Lucraft has to remind him to just answer the questions and not go off track.
 
  • #407
Has a new end date been pencilled in, or are we still looking at next Friday, 8 March? The latest the judge would send the jury out if he's going to do it next week would be "first thing" Friday morning, i.e. about 10.30am. Before then, it seems unlikely we will get all the defence evidence plus summings up from the prosecution, defence, and judge.
 
  • #408
I bet he’ll talk more about his legs and being treated like a dog than he will about baby Victoria.
Did you see how the police officer spoke to him shortly after his arrest? He demanded that he drop his stick. So he had to sit on the pavement.

He seems at least reasonably well educated, using words such as "nuance", for example.

We should assume he's not a walking version of a tabloid rag and that he can keep to the subject properly, unlike say the Evening Standard in this article:


He's got tough work to do on Monday, or whenever he starts giving evidence, for sure.

Have the prosecution closed their case yet?
 
  • #409
Did you see how the police officer spoke to him shortly after his arrest? He demanded that he drop his stick. So he had to sit on the pavement.

He seems at least reasonably well educated, using words such as "nuance", for example.

We should assume he's not a walking version of a tabloid rag and that he can keep to the subject properly, unlike say the Evening Standard in this article:


He's got tough work to do on Monday, or whenever he starts giving evidence, for sure.

Have the prosecution closed their case yet?
They have concluded their case, yes.
 
  • #410
Did you see how the police officer spoke to him shortly after his arrest? He demanded that he drop his stick. So he had to sit on the pavement.

He seems at least reasonably well educated, using words such as "nuance", for example.

We should assume he's not a walking version of a tabloid rag and that he can keep to the subject properly, unlike say the Evening Standard in this article:


He's got tough work to do on Monday, or whenever he starts giving evidence, for sure.

Have the prosecution closed their case yet?

I don't believe anyone has suggested MG is uneducated. It is a matter of fact and literal recordings that he refused to answer police questions for hours by repeatedly asking for for food, mayonnaise, medical assistance, accusing people of treating him like a dog, and what appear IMO to be multiple distraction techniques. Whilst also preferring to lie on the floor.

The main question being asked was 'where is the baby' and that was because police officers and detectives believed the baby could be dying alone hidden somewhere outdoors. In this regard, I would suggest that many people including myself found MG's 're-focus' onto himself and his own plight of need for mayonnaise reprehensible. Not a comment on his intelligence, education, or mental agility which we are not furnished with any formal assessment of, thus far.

JMO MOO
 
  • #411
  • #412
I don't believe anyone has suggested MG is uneducated. It is a matter of fact and literal recordings that he refused to answer police questions for hours by repeatedly asking for for food, mayonnaise, medical assistance, accusing people of treating him like a dog, and what appear IMO to be multiple distraction techniques. Whilst also preferring to lie on the floor.

The main question being asked was 'where is the baby' and that was because police officers and detectives believed the baby could be dying alone hidden somewhere outdoors. In this regard, I would suggest that many people including myself found MG's 're-focus' onto himself and his own plight of need for mayonnaise reprehensible. Not a comment on his intelligence, education, or mental agility which we are not furnished with any formal assessment of, thus far.

JMO MOO
In short, he didn't answer police questions at first and he said the chair that the police offered him was uncomfortable given the severe pain in his feet or legs. I wouldn't rate either of those things as indicative of how he will perform in the witness box, nor view them as a distraction technique. If he's not answering questions, he might as well concentrate on his food. Would complete silence about everything have been less reprehensible? Anyway he answered questions later.

He knows what happened. He seems quite articulate. Let's hope he gives an accurate account.
 
  • #413
There is no way that the trial will finish on 8 March. The Defence have not started yet, God knows how long that will take, 5 days? then there will be the summing up from the prosecution and the Defence, that will be two days, then the judge's summing up which will take at least a day, that is eight days, and that is supposing there are no sub stations blowing up or legal arguments. Then the jury will have to come up with verdicts on four charges for two people, God knows how long that will take. In my opinion it will over run by at least a week.
 
  • #414
He knows what happened. He seems quite articulate. Let's hope he gives an accurate account.

How will anyone know whether or not his account is accurate?
 
  • #415
In short, he didn't answer police questions at first and he said the chair that the police offered him was uncomfortable given the severe pain in his feet or legs. I wouldn't rate either of those things as indicative of how he will perform in the witness box, nor view them as a distraction technique. If he's not answering questions, he might as well concentrate on his food. Would complete silence about everything have been less reprehensible? Anyway he answered questions later.

He knows what happened. He seems quite articulate. Let's hope he gives an accurate account.

You're entitled to your opinion and so is everyone else. To refuse to tell detectives where a (as it turned out, dead) tiny baby is, IMO is reprehensible whatever performance or distraction tactic was used.

I don't believe he answered any questions regarding the location of the baby and this went on for a sustained period of time. I personally do not agree that he 'answered questions later', that is your opinion stated as fact which is not actually true or evidenced, therefore a distortion. He did answer some questions, many very evasively, and only after a) the body had been located and b) he'd been informed of what CM had already stated.

The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. Therefore IMO anyone who speculates that MG would do similar on the stand is simply using straightforward logic. If you have a different idea, that's your personal take on it. The reality is none of us know how he will behave on the stand, if he takes it.

JMO MOO
 
  • #416
He knows what happened. He seems quite articulate. Let's hope he gives an accurate account.

What do you mean he knows what happened?

CM in her statement claims he was asleep and that he did not believe her when she informed him the baby had passed away.

It's a terrible shame that the cause of death cannot be accurately defined. So, are the judge and jurors to believe CM / MG, both, or neither of them?

JMO MOO
 
  • #417
You're entitled to your opinion and so is everyone else. To refuse to tell detectives where a (as it turned out, dead) tiny baby is, IMO is reprehensible whatever performance or distraction tactic was used.

I don't believe he answered any questions regarding the location of the baby and this went on for a sustained period of time. I personally do not agree that he 'answered questions later', that is your opinion stated as fact which is not actually true or evidenced, therefore a distortion. He did answer some questions, many very evasively, and only after a) the body had been located and b) he'd been informed of what CM had already stated.

The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. Therefore IMO anyone who speculates that MG would do similar on the stand is simply using straightforward logic. If you have a different idea, that's your personal take on it. The reality is none of us know how he will behave on the stand, if he takes
Great post
 
  • #418
Did you see how the police officer spoke to him shortly after his arrest? He demanded that he drop his stick. So he had to sit on the pavement.

He seems at least reasonably well educated, using words such as "nuance", for example.

We should assume he's not a walking version of a tabloid rag and that he can keep to the subject properly, unlike say the Evening Standard in this article:


He's got tough work to do on Monday, or whenever he starts giving evidence, for sure.

Have the prosecution closed their case yet?
To be fair, the stick could have been used as a weapon. It seems brutal to make him put it down, but the reality is any person being arrested would have been asked the same.

He saw the nurse prior to interview and wasn’t happy with her assessment. He then wanted to see a doctor, which was turned down because the police believed the nurse had done an adequate assessment. He was given food and drink. From the actor-read interview, the police appeared diplomatic.

I think it will be very interesting to see how he puts his evidence forward. I don’t assume he’s incapable of staying on track, but I do think it could be important to hear more from him about the events and the way he describes them.
 
  • #419
To be fair, the stick could have been used as a weapon. It seems brutal to make him put it down, but the reality is any person being arrested would have been asked the same.

He saw the nurse prior to interview and wasn’t happy with her assessment. He then wanted to see a doctor, which was turned down because the police believed the nurse had done an adequate assessment. He was given food and drink. From the actor-read interview, the police appeared diplomatic.

I think it will be very interesting to see how he puts his evidence forward. I don’t assume he’s incapable of staying on track, but I do think it could be important to hear more from him about the events and the way he describes them.

I agree, about the stick and the rest of your post!.
I think if anyone is going to go off on a tangent it would be CM.
 
  • #420
I am beginning to think that neither Marten or Gordon will appear in the witness stand. That maybe why the court thinks that the case will still finish on 8 March. I dont see what either have got to gain by testifying, they are both awkward and damaged people who will not come across well in court is they behaved as they did in police interviews. I am thinking that their Defence teams will persuade them not to give evidence.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
101
Guests online
3,251
Total visitors
3,352

Forum statistics

Threads
633,347
Messages
18,640,392
Members
243,497
Latest member
autumnequinox
Back
Top