UK- Costessey, 4 People Found Dead In Home

[Cardgame]

I think we need to be careful in assuming a relationship between mental health and domestic violence. Sometimes, criminality is just criminality and there is no definable or diagnosable relationship. Other times, mental illness played zero role in the violence. The vast majority of people struggling with mental health issues are not violent.

I think I was saying a similar thing but less clearly

In other words, DV is a crime and a pattern of abusive behavior which is sometimes (often times) attributed (after the event) to mental health.

We could consider whether narcissistic traits/abusive tendencies amount to a mental health problem but it seems unfair to me to assume that a mental health problem is a contributing factor in family annihilation, if that's what this is. The contributing factor would be DV. IMO.

My comment was a response to speculation that the 999 call was a distress call for mental health help. I didn't find that the most likely scenario.

JMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I think I was saying a similar thing but less clearly

In other words, DV is a crime and a pattern of abusive behavior which is sometimes (often times) attributed (after the event) to mental health.

We could consider whether narcissistic traits/abusive tendencies amount to a mental health problem but it seems unfair to me to assume that a mental health problem is a contributing factor in family annihilation, if that's what this is. The contributing factor would be DV. IMO.

My comment was a response to speculation that the 999 call was a distress call for mental health help. I didn't find that the most likely scenario.

JMO.

Got ya. We are in agreement.

 

[Alyce]

Does that imply she was in the home when the attacks took place?

It's just strange isn't it. So far, EDP are the only media outlet running with this story. However, they are more local than the national media so may have picked up something that others dont have ?

 

[Dpdan]

Labour vows to install domestic abuse specialists in 999 call centres

The shadow home secretary says confidence is waning in the police following recent failings.

www.bbc.co.uk

"Rightly, this case has now been referred for investigation because there does appear to have been a 999 call that wasn't responded to," she said.
Whether a domestic abuse specialist present in the call centre would have made a difference is unclear, the shadow home secretary added.

A spokesperson said: "We have classified violence against women and girls as a national threat, setting clear expectations for how the police should respond, and have provided funding for forces to complete specialist domestic abuse training."

It appears the BBC are classifying the incident as domestic abuse, the article also discusses the circumstances of another case.

 

[StillDiggin]

Detectives investigating the deaths of four people in Costessey, near Norwich, can confirm two died as a result of stab wounds.

It comes after the bodies of two young girls, a 36-year-old woman and a 45-year-old man, were found in a house on Allan Bedford Crescent on Friday morning (19 January 2024).

Today (21 January) Home Office post-mortem examinations were carried out for the man and woman.

The 36-year-old woman died as a result of stab wounds to the neck while the 45-year-old man died as a result of a stab wound to the neck.

Post-mortem examinations for the two girls will be carried out on Wednesday (24 January).

Last night, following extensive enquiries detectives confirmed they were not looking for anyone else in connection with the incident.

Formal identification is yet to take place and the next of kin is being kept informed of developments and supported by specialist officers.

Detective Chief Inspector Chris Burgess, who is leading the investigation, said: “Following this latest development we remain satisfied no one else was involved in this incident.

“This latest information will only add to the distress and shock felt by members of the local community and it’s why, from the outset, we’ve been determined to carry out detailed and methodical enquiries to make sure we fully understand how this incident has happened.

“I would like to thank the community for their support and for the many people who have called offering information. We continue to work through this and will get back to everyone who has been in touch. The police cordon remains in place at the scene and we will continue to have a presence in the area tomorrow.”

The incident has been referred to the Independent Office of Police Conduct (IOPC) due to police contact at the address on 14 December, relating to a missing person enquiry, and in relation to a 999 call made from a man at the address prior to the incident, which didn’t result in the deployment of officers.

The IOPC will assess the circumstances of the call and determine the appropriate level of investigation required. As a result, no further information relating to the circumstances of this call will be released at this time.

https://www.norfolk.police.uk/news/norfolk/news/news/2024/january/costessey-deaths---post-mortem-examination-results/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Orlo

 

[Lucy6226]

The woman died as a result of stab wounds to the neck while Mr Kuczynski died as a result of a single stab wound to the neck, police confirmed.

BBC News - Norwich: Two of four found dead in house were stabbed - police

Norwich: Two of four found dead in house were stabbed, police say

Norfolk Police investigating the deaths of four people in Costessey, say two adults died from stab wounds.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Skigh]

The woman died as a result of stab wounds to the neck while Mr Kuczynski died as a result of a single stab wound to the neck, police confirmed.

BBC News - Norwich: Two of four found dead in house were stabbed - police

Norwich: Two of four found dead in house were stabbed, police say

Norfolk Police investigating the deaths of four people in Costessey, say two adults died from stab wounds.

www.bbc.co.uk

I take from that that Mr Kuczynski was the perpetrator,him having a single wound.

 

[Telltale]

Some neighbours have reported not seeing Mr Kuczynski's Thai-born wife Nanthaka for months and said her sister recently moved into the family home.

But this newspaper understands Nanthaka had been living at the home and her sister had not moved in.

Father found dead with young daughters 'went missing in run up to Christmas’

Forensic teams are continuing investigations at the house where the bodies of a man, woman and two young girls from the same family were discovered.

www.edp24.co.uk

I mean one explanation is some neighbours who don't really know the family didn't realise they'd been seeing the sister in law around instead of the wife.

They wouldn't have to look that similar. People's brains find it hard to tell apart people from an unfamiliar ethnicity. Some neighbours might have just seen a Thai woman around the right age coming in and out with the kids and didn't catch on it was a different person.

So when asked by reporters the ones who did realise said the wife wasn't there and the SIL was looking after the kids. Those who didn't said the wife had been around the whole time.

 

[iamshadow21]

I take from that that Mr Kuczynski was the perpetrator,him having a single wound.

That doesn't necessarily follow. People who use knives against themselves often have shallower, hesitant wounds before the deeper ones.

MOO

 

[Sarahlou]

I take from that that Mr Kuczynski was the perpetrator,him having a single wound.

I think so too. I really don't think the woman is the perpetrator here.

 

[Telltale]

That doesn't necessarily follow. People who use knives against themselves often have shallower, hesitant wounds before the deeper ones.

MOO

I agree, though it does only say what he died of, so hesitation marks that were not significant probably wouldn't be mentioned. One proper stab to the neck would be... Unusual for a suicide even so. Of course you can't really make much of the nature of the wound from a bare bones police statement

It would likely be fairly immediately apparent if it was a suicide in that manner. The fact there isn't a big commotion over hunting down a family murderer at large probably indicates more than anything else that they don't think it's an outside party.

 

[Lucy6226]

I agree, though it does only say what he died of, so hesitation marks that were not significant probably wouldn't be mentioned. One proper stab to the neck would be... Unusual for a suicide even so. Of course you can't really make much of the nature of the wound from a bare bones police statement

It would likely be fairly immediately apparent if it was a suicide in that manner. The fact there isn't a big commotion over hunting down a family murderer at large probably indicates more than anything else that they don't think it's an outside party.

Agreed, all we know at this time is that the perpetrator was someone in that house

 

[Dotta]

"The force said a separate IOPC referral had already been made over their involvement with the family on December 14,
when Mr Kuczynski was reported to have gone missing and was later found wandering nearby."

The red flag incident IMO
<modsnip>

Woman and man found dead in Norwich had 'stab wounds to neck'

The bodies of Bartlomiej Kuczynski and his two children were found by police at the home in Costessey on Friday morning, alongside the body of a woman who has not been identified.

www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Telltale]

"The force said a separate IOPC referral had already been made over their involvement with the family on December 14,
when Mr Kuczynski was reported to have gone missing and was later found wandering nearby."

The red flag incident IMO
<modsnip>

Woman and man found dead in Norwich had 'stab wounds to neck'

The bodies of Bartlomiej Kuczynski and his two children were found by police at the home in Costessey on Friday morning, alongside the body of a woman who has not been identified.

www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

The missing incident or the call at 6am?

If there were red flags after the missing incident I'd say they were for mental health teams to catch. Though of course that depends on what contact he had with them in the interim.

The call at 6am is going to be under a microscope. It's going to be interesting to see what was in it.

Police should not be attending pure mental health jobs unless someone is in immediate danger (or other threat/harm/risk considerations). Police arn't trained or the best people to handle such situations and it sucks up precious resources.

That's why there's been these new strategies in a lot of areas to redirect those callers to ambulance/ mental health crisis teams. Good in theory, but people have kind of been expecting a hasty rollback once a nasty incident happens right after a refused mental health call. Doesn't matter if policy was followed correctly and it was a triage strategy agreed between the emergency services. The press will still be headlining that the police didn't turn up when called.

 

[Amonet]

The missing incident or the call at 6am?

If there were red flags after the missing incident I'd say they were for mental health teams to catch. Though of course that depends on what contact he had with them in the interim.

The call at 6am is going to be under a microscope. It's going to be interesting to see what was in it.

Police should not be attending pure mental health jobs unless someone is in immediate danger (or other threat/harm/risk considerations). Police arn't trained or the best people to handle such situations and it sucks up precious resources.

That's why there's been these new strategies in a lot of areas to redirect those callers to ambulance/ mental health crisis teams. Good in theory, but people have kind of been expecting a hasty rollback once a nasty incident happens right after a refused mental health call. Doesn't matter if policy was followed correctly and it was a triage strategy agreed between the emergency services. The press will still be headlining that the police didn't turn up when called.

I feel it's impossible to form an opinion without knowing more.

I also think that the time it will take for a MH team to get there could be relevant.

But I think the police rules say that they should attend if there appears to be an immediate risk of harm or violence.

I also don't know what training call handlers go through if a call comes in to say something like "there are demons/monsters in my house and I need help"

 

[Telltale]

I feel it's impossible to form an opinion without knowing more.

I also think that the time it will take for a MH team to get there could be relevant.

But I think the police rules say that they should attend if there appears to be an immediate risk of harm or violence.

I also don't know what training call handlers go through if a call comes in to say something like "there are demons/monsters in my house and I need help"

They'll get told to call the mental health crisis hotline or ambulance unless it's followed up with something that suggests immediate danger or that it's actually burglars or something.

They get the same if they just 'feel like dying' or are generally suicidal but don't actually have any plans/timeframe.

Obviously if it's something like 'I'm standing on a bridge' or 'demons are telling me to stab my kids.' Police will turn up, but the benchmark is basically is there immediate threat, harm or risk involved.

When it comes to kids the police have powers to remove them but only when there is concerns of immediate harm. Otherwise it's for social services.

For example, I would guess that when this chap was reported missing then found by police - if he didn't need to be immediately sectioned, he'd have been taken home, interviewed and left with someone there with advice to call and get mental health support. The most that might happen would be a report to social services, and only then if there was some specific concerns for the kids or his ability to care for them. Which would have been less likely if the SIL was already living in the home.

In terms of time it takes for MH teams. I think the whole thing with the police pushing back is basically them going 'no this is your job, you can't expect us to fill in the gaps because ambulance has 10 hour delays, sort it out.' (Unless there is immediate risk obviously.) We will see how long that lasts.

Of course this is pure speculation IMO etc. I'm sure that incident will also be combed over for any missed opportunities.

 

[bleuboy]

My thoughts are the parents split up and dad was struggling emotionally.

I keep thinking about the dad going missing in December. The neighbours make it sound like he was missing for one day and the police had drones out and lots of police there. For the police to react that quickly when an adult is reported missing, it could suggest that the person reporting was worried about the dad harming himself (like Nicola Bulley). By having the sister in law there to help with the kids authorities may have thought all bases are covered.

I just don't understand though, if the dad had wanted to harm himself in December, why not just harm himself this time but leave the kids and the woman alone.

That's why I cannot make my mind up what may have happened.

 

[LadyL]

so they died from knife wounds and there was a knife found in the woods?
who put the knife there? or was that never confirmed by police?

 

[Alyce]

so they died from knife wounds and there was a knife found in the woods?
who put the knife there? or was that never confirmed by police?

No connection according to the police


We’re also aware of commentary on social media about a knife discovered in a wooded area near to the address, however, at this time we’re satisfied it’s not connected to this incident.”

https://www.norfolk.police.uk/news/norfolk/news/news/2024/january/investigations-continue-into-deaths-of-four-people--in-costessey/

 

[iamshadow21]

Here's the most recent police update - don't think it's been linked here, yet. Nothing new, but it's always good to read direct from the source.

https://www.norfolk.police.uk/news/norfolk/news/news/2024/january/costessey-deaths---investigation-update/