GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Tortoise]

Quote - Mr Marnerides' response to the question was inaudible during Butler's rant.
Earlier the doctor had admitted that samples from Ellie's skull had been mislabelled on an electronic registry.
Ms Middleton said that it wasn't clear what was in the registry as recently as April, adding: 'The misidentification only came to light, didn't it, because the defence legal team for Mr Butler wrote to pathologist with a question that had been written by a defence expert.'
But Mr Marnerides rejected any failure on his part and said that it 'wasn't pertinent to what we were examining', because Ellie's fatal brain injury was clearly the cause of her death.
Using a 3D model of Ellie's skull to demonstrate, Mr Marnerides said: 'In this case when the skull was opened it essentially separated into two parts like this.'
He added: 'The brain injury could be seen with the naked eye.'

The pathologist said that they had found fractures to the six-year-old's head estimated to have occurred two-to-four weeks before her death.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...octor-cremating-child-back.html#ixzz48B0ozs3O

 

[cottonweaver]

The pathologist said that they had found fractures to the six-year-old's head estimated to have occurred two-to-four weeks before her death.[/FONT][/SIZE]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...octor-cremating-child-back.html#ixzz48B0ozs3O
[/FONT]

snipped

I can't keep track of all these injuries.
So there is a chance that the skull fracture and shoulder fracture happened at the same time?
2016 Trial :shoulder , expert 1 says it could be 3-5 weeks before 28/10/13, expert 2 says shoulder is 2-4 weeks old.

Ellie is absent from circa 5/10/13 ( whole family has flu) - 14/10/13, 9 days, returns with a visible injuries * ( explained as fallen onto the stairs when she was chasing the family's new Jack Russell puppy) Surely that visible injury can't be from day 1 of her absence - would the bruising etc not have gone? See bottom.
Within the 9 days Gray*extracted a sick note on her word that Ellie had a respiratory tract infection,

2016 Trial rof Freemont . "Then she sustained 'bruising' to the skull, two to three weeks before the fatal injury, the court heard " is this part of the same injury with the skull fracture. Confusing.

*"Displaying bruising on her forehead, the bridge of her nose, and around her left eye, a plaster above her eyebrow."

 

[Tortoise]

snipped

I can't keep track of all these injuries.
So there is a chance that the skull fracture and shoulder fracture happened at the same time?
2016 Trial :shoulder , expert 1 says it could be 3-5 weeks before 28/10/13, expert 2 says shoulder is 2-4 weeks old.

Ellie is absent from circa 5/10/13 ( whole family has flu) - 14/10/13, 9 days, returns with a visible injuries * ( explained as fallen onto the stairs when she was chasing the family's new Jack Russell puppy) Surely that visible injury can't be from day 1 of her absence - would the bruising etc not have gone? See bottom.
Within the 9 days Gray*extracted a sick note on her word that Ellie had a respiratory tract infection,

2016 Trial rof Freemont . "Then she sustained 'bruising' to the skull, two to three weeks before the fatal injury, the court heard " is this part of the same injury with the skull fracture. Confusing.

*"Displaying bruising on her forehead, the bridge of her nose, and around her left eye, a plaster above her eyebrow."

The first day I went to the trial the expert said there was an earlier brain bleed that year, couldn't be precise about timing because healing occurs at different rates.

If she had sustained a skull fracture at the same time as the broken scapula, I can see that bruising would take longer to come out and heal than just say a small surface bump into something.

 

[cottonweaver]

Skull fractures - visual symptoms, ie. what they would have seen

Skull fracture St Johns Ambulance
If a person has a head wound, be alert for a possible skull fracture. An affected person may have impaired consciousness.

A skull fracture is serious because there is a risk that the brain may be damaged either directly by fractured bone from the skull or by bleeding inside the skull. Clear fluid (cerebrospinal fluid) or watery blood leaking from the ear or nose are signs of serious injury.

Suspect a skull fracture in any person who has received a head injury resulting in impaired consciousness. Bear in mind that a person with a possible skull fracture may also have a neck (spinal) injury and should be treated accordingly.

Recognition
Wound or bruise on the head.
Soft area or depression on the scalp.
Bruising or swelling behind one ear.
Bruising around one or both eyes.
Clear fluid or watery blood coming from the nose or an ear.
Blood in the white of the eye.
Distortion or lack of symmetry of the head or face.
Progressive deterioration in the level of response.

http://patient.info/health/dealing-with-head-injuries

school record for 14/10/13
"Displaying bruising on her forehead, the bridge of her nose, and around her left eye, a plaster above her eyebrow."
I wonder if anyone looked under the plaster to see if there was a cut under there. .........


This next one says in skull fractures, if there is bruising it can "take up to 24 hrs to develop" https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000060.htm

 

[Gigi-G]

Skull fractures - visual symptoms, ie. what they would have seen



http://patient.info/health/dealing-with-head-injuries

school record for 14/10/13
"Displaying bruising on her forehead, the bridge of her nose, and around her left eye, a plaster above her eyebrow."
I wonder if anyone looked under the plaster to see if there was a cut under there. .........


This next one says in skull fractures, if there is bruising it can "take up to 24 hrs to develop" https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000060.htm

When JG returned home in the taxi the day Ellie died. Did she not say she saw a reddish colour fluid coming from her mouth?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Tortoise]

When JG returned home in the taxi the day Ellie died. Did she not say she saw a reddish colour fluid coming from her mouth?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Not as far as I know, that was the paramedics who put a clear mask over Ellie's face. One of the pathologists said this was from bleeding of brain, into nasal passages.

 

[cottonweaver]

When JG returned home in the taxi the day Ellie died. Did she not say she saw a reddish colour fluid coming from her mouth?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I can't remember who it was - if it was him? That's the fatal assault anyway.

I was just thinking, in listing those signs, that's what BB & JG would have seen during the 9 days absence( not the fatal assault) - if not every symptom, at least some for the OLD skull fracture

As heinous as it is, I wonder if they knew soon after, that her skull was fractured , from googling her symptoms? ( There was certainly a lot of googling on Ellie going on - urination, hearing voices - so it's plausible.)
Presumably they would need to work out how many days she might be off sick, even if she may have lasting damage that might land them in trouble? A spell of mild panic, she starts searching the net?

ETA Gigi, Dad claimed he saw "foam from mouth so will she be alright?" ( or wtte) aka BS?
, paramedic saw blood from nose.

 

[Gigi-G]

Not as far as I know, that was the paramedics who put a clear mask over Ellie's face. One of the pathologists said this was from bleeding of brain, into nasal passages.

I'm sure it was in one of the earlier reports. I'll see if I can find it..

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Gigi-G]

I can't remember who it was - if it was him? That's the fatal assault anyway.

I was just thinking, in listing those signs, that's what BB & JG would have seen during the 9 days absence( not the fatal assault) - if not every symptom, at least some for the OLD skull fracture

As heinous as it is, I wonder if they knew soon after, that her skull was fractured , from googling her symptoms? ( There was certainly a lot of googling on Ellie going on - urination, hearing voices - so it's plausible.)
Presumably they would need to work out how many days she might be off sick, even if she may have lasting damage that might land them in trouble? A spell of mild panic, she starts searching the net?

They were very savvy when it came to uses of Google. But then again she should of been on the ball there as she's a graphic designer. As such.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[cottonweaver]

I edited my post GIGI - he did see foam, see upthread

 

[cottonweaver]

They were very savvy when it came to uses of Google. But then again she should of been on the ball there as she's a graphic designer. As such.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

as stated at trial, this is the company she worked for

http://www.octopusinvestments.com/

doubtless she didn't fit in that well, it's not an arty/designer environment at all.

 

[Gigi-G]

as stated at trial, this is the company she worked for

http://www.octopusinvestments.com/

doubtless she didn't fit in that well, it's not an arty/designer environment at all.

It's an investment company :/

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Gigi-G]

http://m.suttonguardian.co.uk/news/10771894.Tributes_paid_to__amazing__little_girl_Ellie_Butler/

So sad ):

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Gigi-G]

When JG returned home in the taxi the day Ellie died. Did she not say she saw a reddish colour fluid coming from her mouth?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I thought it was reported a red liquid from her mouth was leaking after JG found her.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lying-call-two-hours-beat-death-fit-rage.html



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Gigi-G]

Not as far as I know, that was the paramedics who put a clear mask over Ellie's face. One of the pathologists said this was from bleeding of brain, into nasal passages.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lying-call-two-hours-beat-death-fit-rage.html

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Gigi-G]

I'm just catching up here. Gosh things are very much at a snails pace this end.. very frustrating. :annoyed:

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Gigi-G]

RE booting fone. Will have the nice cuppa the grumpy one has made me

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Supernovae]

UL Would you please spell that out for the uninitiated - do you mean there should be no ref to any of the adoption history/present etc etc?

I'd tend to go by the rule of thumb, if it's easily findable in the public domain we can probably discuss it.

 

[cottonweaver]

http://m.suttonguardian.co.uk/news/10771894.Tributes_paid_to__amazing__little_girl_Ellie_Butler/

So sad ):

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

good find because it shows she still did have some happy times, based on the neighbours' perception, at any rate.

 

[Supernovae]

Not as far as I know, that was the paramedics who put a clear mask over Ellie's face. One of the pathologists said this was from bleeding of brain, into nasal passages.

Do you have a link for that, or was that evidence you heard in court?