GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Gigi-G]

Gigi I don't think you're disagreeing, dalsglen thinks the same as you...have you linked the wrong post?

I think I have Tortoise.. apologies... just ride with me I'm on a medication haze.... lol
Apologies dalsglen.... we think alike. Miss posted

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[Gigi-G]

The shoulder injury troubles me further. MMM cites specialists saying it would have been v painful - "It would have been really painful, at the time and for a period after its infliction" (The Guardian). But in which case, why did no one outside of the immediate family (grandparents, friends, teachers etc) recognise or do anything?

I think the Teachers and staff at the school were on to something. But each time they requested doctors notes for time off JG seemed to pull one out of the bag to chase the school off. Or pass off some excuse like all family had flu. Ellie had a respitory virus. I think it must of been around the time when Ellie had her shoulder broken. I think also tied in with half term holidays. But on returning back from them Ellie was still off school. So the school requested another note. I do think they asked her to come into the school for a visit. To which I think JG obliged. But it ended up in a shouting match with JG walking out saying the school was ' Victimising' Her and her family. That was very near to when Ellie died. ):

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[Lola68]

She was kept off school during that time and I doubt the parents would have let her see grandparents or friends, with those injuries. She also had skull trauma and fracture from same period.

Thanks. Where did you get this info from? Being kept off school for a that amount of time should surely raise alarm bells - we need to provide a doctor's note for anything >3 days!

 

[Lola68]

Re Grandparents - I realise Ellie's younger sibling hasn't been mentioned in any recent posts - is this off limits?

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks. Where did you get this info from? Being kept off school for a that amount of time should surely raise alarm bells - we need to provide a doctor's note for anything >3 days!

Mum phoned the GP, said Ellie had respiratory tract infection and extracted a sick note - without GP seeing Ellie. She was off school that time for 14 days incl. weekends. I went to court on the day the headmaster gave evidence. If you've time to look back through the thread it's all in here.

 

[Tortoise]

Re Grandparents - I realise Ellie's younger sibling hasn't been mentioned in any recent posts - is this off limits?

Not sure.

 

[Gigi-G]

Re Grandparents - I realise Ellie's younger sibling hasn't been mentioned in any recent posts - is this off limits?

We've kept the younger sibling out of posts. There's nothing forthcoming in MSM regarding the sibling so it's probably best not to include in general topic.

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[cottonweaver]

We've kept the younger sibling out of posts. There's nothing forthcoming in MSM regarding the sibling so it's probably best not to include in general topic.

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Yes, good advice, best to as her name has been redacted in the documents that have been released to the press.

 

[cottonweaver]

The shoulder injury troubles me further. MMM cites specialists saying it would have been v painful - "It would have been really painful, at the time and for a period after its infliction" (The Guardian). But in which case, why did no one outside of the immediate family (grandparents, friends, teachers etc) recognise or do anything?

I think it's accurate to say that everyone here started out with great sympathy for JG but the more closely one follows the case it's tough to deny that JG could have prevented this murder due to her knowing about the previous injuries and covering for them ( shoulders, skull and possibly more. ) .

Now there may be many reasons why she was/is mentally unwell but as it is the whole case is very murky indeed. Did JG knowingly put her kids at risk despite knowing what was happening and having the capacity to distinguish right from wrong. IMO too, yes. There is no doubt that JG is a victim too but does that mitigate this? By assisting with the repeated crimes against Ellie over months by covering up should it affect her conviction?
It's possible she knew/found out that he had committed a criminal assault against Ellie way back in 2007, when they were still in a casual, new relationship with BB (or so they say), well before she was also psychologically beaten into submission by this man.

Flutterby linked to the case of Carl Wheatley that will have to be fully case reviewed. He tried to plead guilty to mansl. due to dim. resp as he also, apparently, suffered from some M Health disorders, but the conviction was still murder with a hefty sentence. So he was legally sane.

JG can answer these questions best at sentence mitigation through her medical records and via a forensic psychiatrist but IDK if she has to co-operate in order for that to
occur.
Hope you get a chance to check out the old links and see what you think.

 

[Gigi-G]

I think it's accurate to say that everyone here started out with great sympathy for JG but the more closely one follows the case it's tough to deny that JG could have prevented this murder due to her knowing about the previous injuries and covering for them ( shoulders, skull and possibly more. ) .

Now there may be many reasons why she was/is mentally unwell but as it is the whole case is very murky indeed. Did JG knowingly put her kids at risk despite knowing what was happening and having the capacity to distinguish right from wrong. IMO too, yes. There is no doubt that JG is a victim too but does that mitigate this? By assisting with the repeated crimes against Ellie over months by covering up should it affect her conviction?
It's possible she knew/found out that he had committed a criminal assault against Ellie way back in 2007, when they were still in a casual, new relationship with BB (or so they say), well before she was also psychologically beaten into submission by this man.

Flutterby linked to the case of Carl Wheatley that will have to be fully case reviewed. He tried to plead guilty to mansl. due to dim. resp as he also, apparently, suffered from some M Health disorders, but the conviction was still murder with a hefty sentence. So he was legally sane.

JG can answer these questions best at sentence mitigation through her medical records and via a forensic psychiatrist but IDK if she has to co-operate in order for that to
occur.
Hope you get a chance to check out the old links and see what you think.

Great response Cottonweaver
We'll put.. I'd just like to add.
All evidence. facts. Dates etc. Are all pertaining to Media articles. Plus use of a search engine. Further info can be forthcoming. It's still a very murky case at the moment. Hopefully we will have more clarity come Friday when BB takes the stand.

With that I'm gonna say night night.
Catch you all later. Good night. Good day wherever whatever part of the world you may be. X

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[cottonweaver]

quoting myself here!

It's possible she knew/found out that he had committed a criminal assault against Ellie way back in 2007, when they were still in a casual, new relationship with BB (or so they say), well before she was also psychologically beaten into submission by this man.

Tortoise wrote a post ages back which it would take me ages to find, but it was a clincher for deciding JG did know ( prior to getting the kids back in 2012) that BB was a danger to the kids.
T, if you can recall that, pls refresh me on that point, when you get a chance.

 

[Tortoise]

quoting myself here!



Tortoise wrote a post ages back which it would take me ages to find, but it was a clincher for deciding JG did know ( prior to getting the kids back in 2012) that BB was a danger to the kids.
T, if you can recall that, pls refresh me on that point, when you get a chance.

I think my point was that when he assaulted Ellie in 2013, even if it was just once at beginning of October, (I don't think it was only once but just for argument's sake) she didn't remove the children. This was new evidence for her that she may have misplaced her faith in him regarding the baby injuries.

The fact that she didn't take the children to a safe place, didn't get medical treatment, lied on his behalf, didn't report him, is highly suggestive to me that she would tolerate and accepted his violence into the bargain on her children's behalf. This was not something that would make her take action - to protect her children, so what reason is there to believe she did have genuine faith in him in 2012? Why not act in 2013?

She wouldn't act, not even when she was lying in a hospital bed at a time of a medical emergency of her own, having had her own head kicked in, and needing a place of refuge. She deleted those texts and the police recovered them.

Before winning their child custody battle, she wrote her magic spell to "make him stop being angry, hateful and violent"

 

[cottonweaver]

I think my point was that when he assaulted Ellie in 2013, even if it was just once at beginning of October, (I don't think it was only once but just for argument's sake) she didn't remove the children. This was new evidence for her that she may have misplaced her faith in him regarding the baby injuries.

The fact that she didn't take the children to a safe place, didn't get medical treatment, lied on his behalf, didn't report him, is highly suggestive to me that she would tolerate and accepted his violence into the bargain on her children's behalf. This was not something that would make her take action - to protect her children, so what reason is there to believe she did have genuine faith in him in 2012? Why not act in 2013?

She wouldn't act, not even when she was lying in a hospital bed at a time of a medical emergency of her own, having had her own head kicked in, and needing a place of refuge. She deleted those texts and the police recovered them.

Before winning their child custody battle, she wrote her magic spell to "make him stop being angry, hateful and violent"

BIb Thankyou - yes that was it - UL makes perfect sense.

If 2013 early Oct shoulder fracture was NEW/unique to her - she would have been devastated to think she had lost all those years with the kids, supported him, ruined her reputation etc etc and it was all misplaced trust that he was innocent of the 2007 assault. It would have been such a shock after 6 years of believing him, a lightbulb moment, (regardless of the domestic abuse), that she would have taken the children out of there early Oct and not risk Eliie almost dying again.

Instead shoulder fracture happens ( and prior injuries arguably), next the final fatal assault and instead what does JG do?
She goes seamlessly into cover-up & acting mode and most importantly maintains that for the next 3 years, unwavering.

 

[cottonweaver]

Also I thought it was interesting that in all that log of saved/undeleted abusive texts ( her phone mainly?) we heard the other day there is only one about Ellie.
The only one was the :

‘I want u to start being alot tougher... Shes being an abs c***... I want to knw y she pissed herself in front of dad and sat there sulking the whole f***ing time,’ Butler said in one message.
Gray replied: ‘I think is terrible so I am going to get tough. U need to be more serious with her too.’

can't believe there were not more, eg. BB texting JG at work about Ellie "triggering his rage" or whatever.

Were they too incriminating and immediately deleted upon receipt or deleted soon after her death? I just find it a bit implausible there is only one incriminating text re. Ellie considering the volume they sent to each other, even from downstairs upstairs in the same house!.

 

[dalsglen]

I think I have Tortoise.. apologies... just ride with me I'm on a medication haze.... lol
Apologies dalsglen.... we think alike. Miss posted

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Lol no worries! I was confused reading your post then realised you must have misread or taken me the wrong way.

There really is no excuse for JG. Time and time again she allowed him to hurt Ellie in such horrendous ways. And to STILL be backing him... unreal.

 

[Tortoise]

Also I thought it was interesting that in all that log of saved/undeleted abusive texts ( her phone mainly?) we heard the other day there is only one about Ellie.
The only one was the :


can't believe there were not more, eg. BB texting JG at work about Ellie "triggering his rage" or whatever.

Were they too incriminating and immediately deleted upon receipt or deleted soon after her death? I just find it a bit implausible there is only one incriminating text re. Ellie considering the volume they sent to each other, even from downstairs upstairs in the same house!.

I'm not sure they've all been reported, and the texts they went though the other day were only for Jan to Mar 2013 - recovered from her phone. After that there were no messages at all on her phone for 3 months.

I finally located the press gallery - it is right next to the jury benches. The first time I went in it was empty, last time there were about 6 reporters there.

Did you notice the discrepancy cottonw, with her medical history in 2013? Had a bit of deja vu there.

 

[cottonweaver]

I'm not sure they've all been reported, and the texts they went though the other day were only for Jan to Mar 2013 - recovered from her phone. After that there were no messages at all on her phone for 3 months.

I finally located the press gallery - it is right next to the jury benches. The first time I went in it was empty, last time there were about 6 reporters there.

Did you notice the discrepancy cottonw, with her medical history in 2013? Had a bit of deja vu there.

BIB Okaaay - so she's wiped a load? And some were not reported for unknown reasons.
6 reporters - maybe it's picking up some momentum in the press.

Yes when I read the documents I thought so many claims were taken on trust and will not have been substantiated. And then so many discrepancies, in general, I had to get my red highlighter tool out LOL.
Shades of Pistorius again, comparing what the Defendants said across various reports etc over the years.

As I probably can't re-paste the extracts of his B.S. from his 2012 blog interviews ( interesting to reflect on re.tomorrow) ..... I'll leave you with this from same date.

BB with his "compensation face" on.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/...OCbRaR7rx5YSOWCkhrNacJjFi95bjlYxPMHc4XTkI.jpg

 

[Gigi-G]

I think my point was that when he assaulted Ellie in 2013, even if it was just once at beginning of October, (I don't think it was only once but just for argument's sake) she didn't remove the children. This was new evidence for her that she may have misplaced her faith in him regarding the baby injuries.

The fact that she didn't take the children to a safe place, didn't get medical treatment, lied on his behalf, didn't report him, is highly suggestive to me that she would tolerate and accepted his violence into the bargain on her children's behalf. This was not something that would make her take action - to protect her children, so what reason is there to believe she did have genuine faith in him in 2012? Why not act in 2013?

She wouldn't act, not even when she was lying in a hospital bed at a time of a medical emergency of her own, having had her own head kicked in, and needing a place of refuge. She deleted those texts and the police recovered them.

Before winning their child custody battle, she wrote her magic spell to "make him stop being angry, hateful and violent"

And then what pains me is she released a statement to the press stating "he has never beaten me. I'm certainly not scared of him. He doesn't frighten me " or words to that effect...... HELLO JG. YOU WROTE "I WISH HE'D STOP BEATING ME. I WISH HE'D LOVE ME. MALE HIM STOP HATING ME" words to that effect in black and write. Not once but a few times these words were uttered.
If he could callously treat her like that. And she KNEW he slapped Ellie about. It was HER responsibility to remove this kids FROM him ASAP!
Ellie didn't need to die. Didn't ask to be a punch bag. Ellie resigned herself to taking his beatings. As normal it would seem. Going by the heartbreaking video of BB ranting in front of her. While she stood there eyes closed. With a blacked eye. JG FAILED ELLIE if not the sibling too. We don't hear if the sibling was treated the same or not touched. (I'd love to know why if that was the case)
Either way a MOTHER protects her child/ren. JG FELL RIDICULOUSLY SHORT OF THIS!

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[Gigi-G]

Lol no worries! I was confused reading your post then realised you must have misread or taken me the wrong way.

There really is no excuse for JG. Time and time again she allowed him to hurt Ellie in such horrendous ways. And to STILL be backing him... unreal.

Thank you

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[Tortoise]

BIB Okaaay - so she's wiped a load? And some were not reported for unknown reasons.

No, they were ALL wiped, but there was nothing to restore for a whole 3 months after March 2013. No texts sent/received. People I spoke to (I wasn't there in the morning) who were there in the morning said it wasn't clear if they had split up for those 3 months or if she had used a different phone.

As I probably can't re-paste the extracts of his B.S. from his 2012 blog interviews ( interesting to reflect on re.tomorrow) ..... I'll leave you with this from same date.

BB with his "compensation face" on.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/...OCbRaR7rx5YSOWCkhrNacJjFi95bjlYxPMHc4XTkI.jpg

:sick:

Thank you, not