GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[cottonweaver]

Other point I've just remembered from the other day in court (the day he pulled a sicky) was that as the prosecution was preparing to close its case the next day, they did a run through for the jury of other points of note, like previous convictions and sister's care order.

It was to do with Ellie's funeral. August 2015 (could have been 2014 but I think it was 2015) maternal grandparents wrote and asked if Ellie's body could be released to them so they could arrange her funeral. Crown agreed and then letters were sent back and forth between JG's and BB's legal teams and there seemed to be no objection and then suddenly JG changed her mind and her solicitors wrote saying she wanted the body released to her so she could arrange the funeral. Eventually after not doing so, she dropped the request and Ellie's body was released to the grandparents. During this time the legal teams were given an opportunity to take more tissue samples. Which they did, and were not prevented or denied their requests. The other team did not raise objection to the summary given to the jury. I really don't know what his rant was about from the dock when he claimed there was a cover up and said Ellie was cremated before they had a chance to do their own tests.

UL Sound so like this pair. She can't face it ( funeral arrangement) but then BB convinces her ina visit at Belmarsh she should arrange it - it looks better - looks like what an innocent person would do. Then she bottles it and sticks her head back in the sand, as she presumably has done for the last decade or so. Wonder if she actually attended? What do posters think?

BIB Well he's blown that one then hasn't he. Jury are going to think he is conspiracy-nut as well as every thing else they think of him.

 

[cottonweaver]

I hadn't considered it before either but let's say he decided to kill her and make it look like an accident. He's not going to get away with it if it's an outright obvious murder such as a stabbing. Let's say the other two occasions were 'failed accidents', Because every time he injured Ellie he stood the risk of her telling someone at school. He may have issued all kinds of threats - you'll never see Mummy or sister or granma/gramps again if you tell anyone - but he would never really know what she might say if encouraged to talk by trained supportive school staff/SS. So his chances of getting away with it a third time so soon after the last, were almost non existent - people aren't going to believe this falling over and looking battered story forever.

So this time it has to be such a bad accident, such a hard 'fall' (right onto her head not her feet or knees or side) that she can't recover. I don't know if he could have pre-planned it better than that. Anything less serious and she might have survived to tell the tale. I just don't see how he can smash her head so hard to break her skull without thinking 'how will I ever get away with this if she survives?'.

Yep, I'm thinking now it was deliberate. Call JG tell her Ellie's had an accident, you can't call an ambulance because they won't believe us and we will lose other daughter. So come home and pretend with me that we were just having a delightful afternoon with tea and cake...

Every time he hurt Ellie JG never said a word to anyone, just as she didn't when he hurt her, because she knows the truth and is culpable for not protecting her children from him.

We've seen her lie to the police 'Ben has never hurt me'. She must have thought they had no proof! She never saw them going through the communal rubbish bins and emptying the washing machine, see what she had been wearing that day on cctv as she left work, and didn't know they could recover deleted texts.

As for his spray of aftershave, I'm wondering if he was breathalised.

I am going to have to go mull this over properly whilst I'm doing some more chores and come back to to you.

I don't discount anything , because the more info we have got the worse this whole case has become.
It started out for me as DV- but with weird staging.
However now it feels like one of those long -running awful sex abuse cases - not cause there was sexual abuse here ( God forbid) - just cause of all the masquerades, cool lies and clever manip of all the authorities etc. etc.

 

[Supernovae]

Have they completed his evidence in chief, or is that continuing on Tuesday? Do they have the rest of the week mapped out?

 

[Gigi-G]

In fact the more I think about it the more I am convinced that this was the reason. Ellie was dangerous to him, a threat to his future. She would always have that potential to ruin him. With JG he knew he could do anything at all to her and she would never tell. She had proved that to him. She "would die for him".

I think that's why my ears pricked up when the headmaster referred to the grandparents in the last (angry) email JG sent him a week before Ellie's death. I didn't get the full context but it mentioned access. It was all coming to a head.

The list of problems they had with Ellie is revealing. 'lying, feel you can't trust her, has an invisible friend, urinating to be bad, answers back, argues, manipulative, etc..' That to me suggests that they were building a case for something. Problems that they felt involved the grandparents in some way or that they wanted to allege were caused by their interference, or merely to show that Ellie was not to be believed if anyone started prying.


Why would JG pray 'please make Ben be there if I have a baby boy'? What is that about? Does that mean only if I have a boy, not if I have a girl?

Some guys would prefer a boy. As male bonding father n son bonding. In my case having girls n boys. The girls were daddy's lil princess and the boys were dad's trainee mechanics. All of them now work in an engineering/automotive area. This is entirely a fact. And of my own experience. Imo

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[Gigi-G]

I have a few observations to make about the account he gave in court on Friday, of what happened on the night of Ellie's head injuries as a 6 week old baby.

BB said JG was an hour late arriving because she had fed Ellie and then had to change a dirty nappy. When JG dropped her off she dropped off milk bottles as well and said she had been told Ellie was having a growth spurt, so he should feed her. She arrived in her car seat, asleep, which was when they both agreed she looked as white as a sheet. After taking her up to his room, he took her out of her car seat and tried to feed her but she wasn't interested so he put her back in her car seat and put her on the floor next to him while he played on his computer. He said she usually slept with her fists together like a boxer in front of her chest but when he looked her arms were laying floppy by her sides and he knew something wasn't right. That was when he put her on the bed and called his friend from the next room to see and asked him to call an ambulance.

1. Why feed Ellie if she had just had a feed before leaving JG's home nearby and wasn't showing signs of needing a feed / being hungry / crying?
2. Why feed a sleeping baby?
3. Why would Ellie still be asleep (with her fists up) after he disturbed her and tried to feed her?
4. Why would a baby keep control of her hands/arms while asleep?
5. How would he know her usual arm position and if it was what she always did - a) he hadn't seen much of her and this was only the 2nd time she had slept at his place and had only just got there, b) babies don't usually sleep all night in car seats, this wasn't a laid out baby in a cot or in a normal sleeping position, c) babies in my experience don't have one general arm position, they may prefer to sleep on their sides or fronts/backs but a baby in a car seat is not likely to have much option for positioning their arms
6. Why would he think arms by her sides was not just a fully relaxed sleep?

I really don't believe he would have been that observant of her, while playing on a computer, to notice her arms had moved or to think that was immediately a sign that there was something drastically wrong.

Sorry BB, I don't believe one word of your account.

I've only just realised fully why the judge stopped him from saying the cyst in Ellie's throat caused her collapse. The court has obviously agreed that the way to present this evidence to the jury was to say that following the quashing of the conviction, it has never been established in court what caused her collapse.

Seconded. You got it all right Tortoise. His theory or account of that night has more holes than a tea bag.
If a baby in a car seat is still strapped in. It won't move it's arms anyway.
Babies don't sleep in a crib with their arms like boxers. That'd mean she wasn't in r.e.m sleep. She was lightly sleeping.
He even said himself he hadn't had the chance to see her much. Dun dunn dunnnnnnn. Hope the Jury are as switched on as you are. Or even the defence QC.
Someone has gotta pick that up surely.

Well done YOU!! ♡

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[Gigi-G]

RSBM
BIB 1 Wholeheartedly agree. The pressure was bad in 2009 but after being exonerated before and now for him to think all that ( his restoration, pride even, publicity appearances) was about to fall away beneath him. Plus he just couldn't hack living with 2 children nor a live-in relationship. He's got the GPs on side - as we discussed many pages ago - but this school is a big problem and I have no doubt that SServices were also trying to meet with them. Your school- testimony-day-reporting made it crystal clear they were in the , trying to wangle sick notes continually, slamming down phones, deflecting by claiming prejudice.

( On your other topic about gparents - ID believe that a contact agreement was not made for them to see the child they had raised for 5 years- it doesn't make sense.

UL - Never considered that before, but I get what you mean - close down the risk permanently. TBH I think he would have planned it better had it been premed murder.

I still don't understand after the shoulder and some of the other bad injuries ( skull bruising) why he did not leave or get her to do so. He's not dim. She wouldn't leave and he'd seen that he couldn't control himself. I can't work out whose flat tenancy this is so who would find it "easier" to leave. He wouldn't have let her go to gramps but he has some kind of support from his family. (Friday court day)
Did he get sadistic pleasure from it? He tells the psych in 2004 he is of low mood 2-3 times a week and battering another bloke makes him feel better.
i suppose we're just not crazy enough to get any of it.

RE tenancy you could Google the address it will show up whose name is there... I think. Don't quote me but it's a thought. I'm assuming it's her name it's in as she's the one with the children.

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[Tortoise]

Have they completed his evidence in chief, or is that continuing on Tuesday? Do they have the rest of the week mapped out?

No, they've only just got to Jan 2013.By my estimation he will need all of Tuesday to get through 2013 and Ellie's death. Or at least a whole morning. After that, depending on his state, they may commence cross-examination in the afternoon or give him a break and leave it to the next day. I don't think they can plan that far ahead with the week, depends how long they spend on cross-x. My guess is he'll be in the witness box all week.

 

[Gigi-G]

I don't believe him either and I have tried to - considering that medical evidence on SBS is so controversial and still developing. Your 1 & 2 are very true - it makes no sense.

In his first re-telling of this night he said he also had to change her nappy after JG had brought her over. ( IMO that's when the irritation happened and the shake, gritted teeth and some foul language.)

As you say, he claimed all sorts of intimate knowledge of Ellie - yet it was meant to be only the second over-nighter.
Another discrepancy - isn't this the first time that he has given all this info about him making so many visits to JG's to see his new baby? IIRC that's new but please correct me if I'm off on that. Also this "growth spurt " is new - he is embroidering as he has gone through what he said in 2009 and realised , as you did, it makes no logical sense to immediately feed her?!

IMO It's not credible that a new but estranged Dad even asks to look after a 6 week old who they had both previously discussed was "pale" and had noisy breathing - even my best female friends wouldn't want to do, my mum OK - I appreciate people are different but i would be worried sick and phoning /texting within a short time of dropping her off even in JG's scenario, it's her first born..... however much she wanted a night out which I do u'stand.
IMO he didn't want to look after that baby that night and was already p'ssd off with JG firstly for getting pregnant and now asking him to childcare.

Also question for all - how does it work with CSA if you are a Dad on benefits? Are you still expected to do something financially ? I appreciate JG is the last person on earth to be asking him for £ as she is infatuated etc, but might there have been a subtle pressure/hint that he's not paying his way?

As per CSA that wouldn't of kicked in as yet. Mother's got to put in a claim first. And so on the DWP aren't the fastest snails in the box.
He would then have an amount stopped out of his benefit each time he's paid. Being on benefits it would only amount to idk £5 not a whole lot. but obviously it'd be more if he were earning a wage.
Maybe she thought well he could offer to buy some nappies. They are always needed. Can never have enough. Hope that's helped un muddy the water from the benefits side.

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[Gigi-G]

It's BS.

What a coincidence - if true - that six weeks after birth a baby develops severe brain trauma (also skull fracture which has now been discovered) and bleeding behind the eyes, that evening of all evenings, not the day before or an hour before, but the minute she is in her father's care!

Same as the other injuries - always falling and making her brain bleed and then breaking her shoulder, falling into the stairs - while in Dad's care.

He's trying to show she had something wrong with her. Why always in his care - not the grandparents care for almost 6 years?

How many times I wonder did she show up at her previous school with black eyes and bruised forehead? It happened twice in two school terms since being with BB.

Other point I've just remembered from the other day in court (the day he pulled a sicky) was that as the prosecution was preparing to close its case the next day, they did a run through for the jury of other points of note, like previous convictions and sister's care order.

It was to do with Ellie's funeral. August 2015 (could have been 2014 but I think it was 2015) maternal grandparents wrote and asked if Ellie's body could be released to them so they could arrange her funeral. Crown agreed and then letters were sent back and forth between JG's and BB's legal teams and there seemed to be no objection and then suddenly JG changed her mind and her solicitors wrote saying she wanted the body released to her so she could arrange the funeral. Eventually after not doing so, she dropped the request and Ellie's body was released to the grandparents. During this time the legal teams were given an opportunity to take more tissue samples. Which they did, and were not prevented or denied their requests. The other team did not raise objection to the summary given to the jury. I really don't know what his rant was about from the dock when he claimed there was a cover up and said Ellie was cremated before they had a chance to do their own tests.

That's why he was so pi55ed when hearing that Ellie's body had been Cremated. He wanted to prove there was something wrong with her. Both JG and BB were United on that remark. And yet just before he was slagging her off.
He wanted to be exonerated again. By saying she's ALWAYS falling she has a 'tumour on the brain'.... 'cancer' there's no telling how low this guy would go...... now his 'get outta jail card' has gone (I wouldnt put it past HIM to play on that tho. I'm serious)
Jmo

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[Gigi-G]

One more point one of the pathologists mentioned - they expect children when falling to put out their hands to break their fall, which is another reason they don't expect to see such serious head injuries from an accident. He said children do it more than adults because of their agility.

I still think the two blows to her head that day will assist the jury, if they are in any doubt, which I seriously doubt they will be.

It makes me wonder. Forensics were in the house/flat. Has anyone got the accommodation blue prints/layout. Cuz it looks like 3 levels of apartment's yet the mid one (where BB JG are) look like it has up and downstairs... as I wonder what steps she'd fall on. Ones to get to her front door or stairs indoors.
If forensics found Ellie's blood and JG'S blood on various places. Can they tell where/how/what Ellie was hit?
I mean if there's an implement. Evidence on Wall? Floor? Sorry to be so gruesome but no one has said anything about any forensic findings due to her death. To me that's a bit odd. We know it's blunt force trauma but HOW?

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[Tortoise]

It makes me wonder. Forensics were in the house/flat. Has anyone got the accommodation blue prints/layout. Cuz it looks like 3 levels of apartment's yet the mid one (where BB JG are) look like it has up and downstairs... as I wonder what steps she'd fall on. Ones to get to her front door or stairs indoors.
If forensics found Ellie's blood and JG'S blood on various places. Can they tell where/how/what Ellie was hit?
I mean if there's an implement. Evidence on Wall? Floor? Sorry to be so gruesome but no one has said anything about any forensic findings due to her death. To me that's a bit odd. We know it's blunt force trauma but HOW?

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I've wondered the same thing Gigi.

 

[Gigi-G]

UL Sound so like this pair. She can't face it ( funeral arrangement) but then BB convinces her ina visit at Belmarsh she should arrange it - it looks better - looks like what an innocent person would do. Then she bottles it and sticks her head back in the sand, as she presumably has done for the last decade or so. Wonder if she actually attended? What do posters think?

BIB Well he's blown that one then hasn't he. Jury are going to think he is conspiracy-nut as well as every thing else they think of him.

As to her attending the funeral. I'd be angry if she didn't. She gave birth to that darling lil girl. And if she turned her back on her in death as she did in life. Well more fool her. She doesn't deserve children if that's the case. There are plenty of loving women out there that can't give birth. I really hope her path is crossed one day by a woman who can't conceive. And I hope she feels ashamed. Letting a bully harm an innocent child. Grrr *rant over* sorry

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[Tortoise]

Have just found a few more of the texts between them - http://www.newstoday.co.uk/2016/05/ellies-dad-disgusted-partner-became-pregnant/

Wonder what this one means

“U want me to return there and be around U and leave hosp without getting DEAD BABY REMAINS OUT OF MY WOMB PROPERLY…so if I do not agree now U will grass FOR NO REASON.”

 

[Gigi-G]

Have just found a few more of the texts between them - http://www.newstoday.co.uk/2016/05/ellies-dad-disgusted-partner-became-pregnant/

Wonder what this one means

That's an odd remark to say. Shame we haven't got all their texts in a time line. Or the ones before or mid or after...
Well obviously SHE has got something to hide......

If he wanted her home..... like NOW (as we know he says jump she says how high)
But she's in midst of a d&c. (Not usually a night stay it's usually done let home with relative pain meds n antibiotics.)
But sounds like she's stalling prob cuz she feels like . Just wants to sleep. N can't be ar5ed with his BS right now of all things.
Then . It will GRASS ..... hmmm elaborate plz ):

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[Gigi-G]

That's an odd remark to say. Shame we haven't got all their texts in a time line. Or the ones before or mid or after...
Well obviously SHE has got something to hide......

If he wanted her home..... like NOW (as we know he says jump she says how high)
But she's in midst of a d&c. (Not usually a night stay it's usually done let home with relative pain meds n antibiotics.)
But sounds like she's stalling prob cuz she feels like . Just wants to sleep. N can't be ar5ed with his BS right now of all things.
Then . It will GRASS ..... hmmm elaborate plz ):

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Has SHE got something to hide too then? :0

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[flourish]

Okay I just have to share this finally. My baby boy was violently shaken by his bio dad. This case is very difficult. I know my son's killer and others have suggested that sbs is like... Bogus, but it also seems like they're specifying cases where there's not other signs of abuse, is that correct? That's the impression I'm getting is that cases where there's the brain damage that indicates sbs but no other evidence like bruises, broken bones, etc. are the ones where this birth trauma is possibly another possible cause of the brain damage?

I hope I'm making sense. I guess I just get riled about this subject. There's no doubt babies die from being shaken. It just may not have been what happened every time it's suspected.

Anyway, it's not unusual for only one child to be targeted. Someone posted this great article on this or another thread (sorry don't remember).

http://parrishmiller.com/narcissists.html

Doesn't just happen with mothers.

This couple is just awful. Her ever present smirk. His wide eyed feigned innocence. It's nauseating. That video of Ellie swaying and clearly shutting down is so disturbing and haunting.

 

[Gigi-G]

Has SHE got something to hide too then? :0

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My minds doing hoopla hoops. I need a cuppa n some more meds. Gah!

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[Gigi-G]

Okay I just have to share this finally. My baby boy was violently shaken by his bio dad. This case is very difficult. I know my son's killer and others have suggested that sbs is like... Bogus, but it also seems like they're specifying cases where there's not other signs of abuse, is that correct? That's the impression I'm getting is that cases where there's the brain damage that indicates sbs but no other evidence like bruises, broken bones, etc. are the ones where this birth trauma is possibly another possible cause of the brain damage?

I hope I'm making sense. I guess I just get riled about this subject. There's no doubt babies die from being shaken. It just may not have been what happened every time it's suspected.

Anyway, it's not unusual for only one child to be targeted. Someone posted this great article on this or another thread (sorry don't remember).

http://parrishmiller.com/narcissists.html

Doesn't just happen with mothers.

This couple is just awful. Her ever present smirk. His wide eyed feigned innocence. It's nauseating. That video of Ellie swaying and clearly shutting down is so disturbing and haunting.

There's 2 different episodes here in Ellie's case. Regarding sbs. At 7 weeks old when Ellie was first encountered in hospital. It was a 'General hospital' and there was an examination done and sbs was mentioned. There are plenty of links to read in depth of the findings. As I don't wanna go all technical.
Then in Oct 2013 Ellie was 'found' with a massive head injury. And all Ellie's medical reports from past have been pulled because of the nature of events that followed from when Ellie was 7 weeks old.

Sbs is seen with broken bones usually possibly skull ribs clavicle scapula spine pelvis dependant on the severity and entirety. Never an easy case to judge. And totally harrowing for the parent (s).

I am so sorry that you've had to deal with something I can't remotely begin to know how you felt/feel. But your ♡ is with yr baby boy. He's safe now. X

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[Gigi-G]

Recalling Ellie's final moments in the police interview, Gray claimed she had heard the youngster playing in her room after she got home from working as a graphic designer in the capital.

Umm anyone else notice this? . Apparently she came home and heard ELLIE PLAYING UPSTAIRS?????

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[cottonweaver]

Okay I just have to share this finally. My baby boy was violently shaken by his bio dad. This case is very difficult. I know my son's killer and others have suggested that sbs is like... Bogus, but it also seems like they're specifying cases where there's not other signs of abuse, is that correct? That's the impression I'm getting is that cases where there's the brain damage that indicates sbs but no other evidence like bruises, broken bones, etc. are the ones where this birth trauma is possibly another possible cause of the brain damage?

I hope I'm making sense. I guess I just get riled about this subject. There's no doubt babies die from being shaken. It just may not have been what happened every time it's suspected.

Anyway, it's not unusual for only one child to be targeted. Someone posted this great article on this or another thread (sorry don't remember).

http://parrishmiller.com/narcissists.html

Doesn't just happen with mothers.

This couple is just awful. Her ever present smirk. His wide eyed feigned innocence. It's nauseating. That video of Ellie swaying and clearly shutting down is so disturbing and haunting.

So sorry flourish. I had no idea. This case must be absolutely awful for you.

I'm afraid I don't fully understand the science of SBS but I think the doctor who helped BB's case made a big point about her breathing issues and the throat cyst. I also imagine this pathologist Scheimberg that they have hired has disproved SBS with other Defendents, I imagine this is largely in trials where there are not other signs of abuse.
IIRC in the 2012 inteviews/ blogs ( links at start of this thread ) this pair made a big issue of the fact that Ellie had no other abuse signs that could have occurred at the same time as the alleged shake eg. neck injury.
I honestly don't know how much force you need to create SBS in a tiny 6 week old.

Again, sincere condolences for this terrible, terrible thing you have been through.