GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

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  • #721
  • #722
Recalling Ellie's final moments in the police interview, Gray claimed she had heard the youngster playing in her room after she got home from working as a graphic designer in the capital.

Umm anyone else notice this? . Apparently she came home and heard ELLIE PLAYING UPSTAIRS?????

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Yes I have that from the news. It was est to be 1.50 and the 999 was 2.46. 2.10 she texts her boss. Around 2pm neighbours heard a child ( assume younger sis?) crying and BB shouting. ( I had to paste it into a docu as I couldn't keep track of the versions. )

It was JG yes. Did she mean she just heard Peppa Pig playing on the DVD though? IDK

Why what are you thinking GG?

Also you did have some thoughts on Ellie being medicated/sedated.
 
  • #723
IF..... she's right and it was Ellie she heard.... puts her in the frame too..... maybe that's why he mentioned to 'Grass on' in that text.... jmo. Head is pounding grr

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  • #724
Yes I have that from the news. It was est to be 1.50 and the 999 was 2.46. 2.10 she texts her boss. Around 2pm neighbours heard a child ( assume younger sis?) crying and BB shouting. ( I had to paste it into a docu as I couldn't keep track of the versions. )

It was JG yes. Did she mean she just heard Peppa Pig playing on the DVD though? IDK

Why what are you thinking GG?

Also you did have some thoughts on Ellie being medicated/sedated.
Easier with 2 😉

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  • #725
Have just found a few more of the texts between them - http://www.newstoday.co.uk/2016/05/ellies-dad-disgusted-partner-became-pregnant/

“U want me to return there and be around U and leave hosp without getting DEAD BABY REMAINS OUT OF MY WOMB PROPERLY…so if I do not agree now U will grass FOR NO REASON.”

Wonder what this one means

Oh my . What is that?

Does it mean grass to social services? I haven't read you rlink yet , but could it be part of this: March 2013 her wanting to stay in hosp and threatening to call social workers and she will lose Ellie?

"Butler begged her to take his phone calls.
Butler told her that if she stayed in hospital he would call a social worker and she would lose Ellie"

Even if it's just that why would SS take Ellie in March, what was he going to claim that SHE was doing wrong. And she implies that currently there is "no reason" as if previously there WAS a reason.
Flummoxed. Anybody else got a hunch?
 
  • #726
IF..... she's right and it was Ellie she heard.... puts her in the frame too..... maybe that's why he mentioned to 'Grass on' in that text.... jmo. Head is pounding grr

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OK I get it, you mean if she actually heard Ellie, not just the DVD sound, she was the last person to hear her alive, adds culpability

OTOH as she has admitted to "perverting" c of j, maybe she has already come clean on this part of her testimony/changed her tune?

( I need to go back and look at the expert estimates of time of death. Look at the range. )

Do you think she will testify Gigi - appreciate you may not answer as you sound in pain
 
  • #727
OK I get it, you mean if she actually heard Ellie, not just the DVD sound, she was the last person to hear her alive, adds culpability

OTOH as she has admitted to "perverting" c of j, maybe she has already come clean on this part of her testimony/changed her tune?

( I need to go back and look at the expert estimates of time of death. Look at the range. )

Do you think she will testify Gigi - appreciate you may not answer as you sound in pain

The 'grass' text was sent in March 2013 so it can't be connected with the day of Ellie's death
 
  • #728
It makes me wonder. Forensics were in the house/flat. Has anyone got the accommodation blue prints/layout. Cuz it looks like 3 levels of apartment's yet the mid one (where BB JG are) look like it has up and downstairs... as I wonder what steps she'd fall on. Ones to get to her front door or stairs indoors.
If forensics found Ellie's blood and JG'S blood on various places. Can they tell where/how/what Ellie was hit?
I mean if there's an implement. Evidence on Wall? Floor? Sorry to be so gruesome but no one has said anything about any forensic findings due to her death. To me that's a bit odd. We know it's blunt force trauma but HOW?

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IDK what they actually have but this is what UKCourt News reported

"The bloodstains of a six year old girl were found throughout her home after she was murdered by her father, a court heard Little Ellie's pillow was found stained with her blood after she was allegedly battered to death by frustrated house husband Ben Butler, 36, at their Sutton home.
Blood on a sofa cushion in the living room was also found to match her DNA profile after she suffered catastrophic head injuries similar to those caused by a high-speed car crash on 28 October 2013, the Old Bailey has heard.*

The girl's mother Jennie Gray, 36, left a trail of her own blood spatters along the walls of the hallway outside Ellie's bedroom to upstairs bathroom*
Today (Thurs)*forensic scientist Andrew Bell told jurors that the blood patterns appeared to be 'recent' and could have been caused by an 'impact' to Gray.*
'Wet dilute blood from Ellie Butler had been deposited onto the pillow,' said Mr Bell. 'In my opinion a bleeding Jennie Gray or an object wet with her blood had dripped blood onto the floor of Ellie Butler's bedroom and that drip-blood trail continued along the hallway into the bathroom"

That's all we got to hear
 
  • #729
Oh my . What is that?

Does it mean grass to social services? I haven't read you rlink yet , but could it be part of this: March 2013 her wanting to stay in hosp and threatening to call social workers and she will lose Ellie?

"Butler begged her to take his phone calls.
Butler told her that if she stayed in hospital he would call a social worker and she would lose Ellie"

Even if it's just that why would SS take Ellie in March, what was he going to claim that SHE was doing wrong. And she implies that currently there is "no reason" as if previously there WAS a reason.
Flummoxed. Anybody else got a hunch?

yes I agree it implies there was a reason before, that's the way I read it.
 
  • #730
I hadn't considered it before either but let's say he decided to kill her and make it look like an accident. He's not going to get away with it if it's an outright obvious murder such as a stabbing. Let's say the other two occasions were 'failed accidents', Because every time he injured Ellie he stood the risk of her telling someone at school. He may have issued all kinds of threats - you'll never see Mummy or sister or granma/gramps again if you tell anyone - but he would never really know what she might say if encouraged to talk by trained supportive school staff/SS. So his chances of getting away with it a third time so soon after the last, were almost non existent - people aren't going to believe this falling over and looking battered story forever.

So this time it has to be such a bad accident, such a hard 'fall' (right onto her head not her feet or knees or side) that she can't recover. I don't know if he could have pre-planned it better than that. Anything less serious and she might have survived to tell the tale. I just don't see how he can smash her head so hard to break her skull without thinking 'how will I ever get away with this if she survives?'.

Yep, I'm thinking now it was deliberate. Call JG tell her Ellie's had an accident, you can't call an ambulance because they won't believe us and we will lose other daughter. So come home and pretend with me that we were just having a delightful afternoon with tea and cake...

Every time he hurt Ellie JG never said a word to anyone, just as she didn't when he hurt her, because she knows the truth and is culpable for not protecting her children from him.

We've seen her lie to the police 'Ben has never hurt me'. She must have thought they had no proof! She never saw them going through the communal rubbish bins and emptying the washing machine, see what she had been wearing that day on cctv as she left work, and didn't know they could recover deleted texts.

As for his spray of aftershave, I'm wondering if he was breathalised.

Starting from bottom I think your aftershave to mask alcohol point has potential. That's a better reason to spray it than just vanity. Had he been drinking day time. ( Indeed are a lot of those texts fuelled by drink - some of them are so garbled they look "drunk". Does alc facilitate his rage? Would love to know if he was tested as standard procedure. IDK how late on 28th he was arrested and whether it could have gone from his system if a breath test is indeed standard on arrest at the station. Presume it is?

On your other big point.
It is possible , it was pre -med.
Are you thinking :
JG would not have known he was planning to do this and was at work, when he told her to come home at 1.46 she wasn't aware he had killed her.
JG would never tell so he didn't need to worry about her anyway.
Ellie was the prime witness to circa 11 months of abuse. If she was gone she couldn't reveal any of that abuse ( not incl the fatal injury of course) . He was worried she may reveal this due to an upcoming meet with gparents plus perhaps increasing pressure from social services who are persistently trying to set up a meet ( perhaps after convos with the school.)
So he hit her once then decided to finish it - you mean? Or before the first strike he decided to shut her down basically.
It is possible - Ellie may have said sthg about wanting to tell Gramps, or crying that she wanted to go back run away to Grandma etc etc and that sparked the fatal attack. I think that Ellie would have said that at some stage - it's just natural and to her those gps were her parents really.
BUT
Why didn't he cleanse the flat before the 28th though if it was totally premed? ( as opposed to rush around binning stuff the same afternoon)
Again apols for being graphic but would it not have been better to stage/claim a fall downstairs or even do that to Ellie. That would be better than a staged overturned chair.

Or, OTOH , it IS premed , (but not premed in layman's terms). ie. he can decide up to say, a few minutes before he strikes, before he carries out the act to shut her up once & for all. I do think it is very possible. Imagine a scenario where Ellie says, grandpa always told me that I should tell the truth etc etc and that decided it for BB.??

As you can see i haven't fully thought your scenario through yet but I do believe people in rage can be fully aware, fully in control, it's not all "red mist". I think even that topic is interesting in itself, in general and in relation to him as I have always thought he can exhibit self- control, as you will have read.
 
  • #731
Right, that's all the posts read - will call it a night

Forgot to add , the expert I found said "the second skull fracture happened 1-6 hours before death."*
Flutterby's post
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-trial-for-murder-of-daughter-Ellie-(6)/page8

JG got the call at 12.46
Arrived home at 1.50
2.46 amb called
Officially death declared on arrival at hospital at 4.01 but IDK Ellie's status prior to that, ( paramedics records)

Does that really mean death est to have occurred any time between 10 am and 3pm. It's a very wide range considering paramedics on scene checking all vitals, signs from around 3 ish and recording all that later.
Anyway, the crown's case is that JG perverted, not murdered herself and BB did this sometime before 12.46

We still have that weird evidence to figure out . From a previous post:

"10.45 JG arrives at work. Sutton Trains not running, trees down. Ms Bernstein said Gray had come into work and told her her partner was down in Cornwall, looking after his ill father, and that Ellie was being looked after by her godfather. Why use this – as an excuse for being late? Makes no sense, why is she lying ? She didn't need to lie for being late as Station Train station was closed. Makes no sense. What is she covering?" Presume she left home say 9.30 that morning?
 
  • #732
Easier with 2 😉

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I think they've sedated Ellie all the way thru. If not with a crushed pill in a 'cake' you can get the 'Fenergan' in liquid form. If I remember it's quite sweet anyways. I'll see if I've got an old bottle lurking. If I was feeling perplexed. I'd take a 5ml on going to bed. It's not that potent but it helps.

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  • #733
Easier with 2 😉

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I had miss spelt it Phenergan.

https://g.co/kgs/Vdix3
I think they've sedated Ellie all the way thru. If not with a crushed pill in a 'cake' you can get the 'Fenergan' in liquid form. If I remember it's quite sweet anyways. I'll see if I've got an old bottle lurking. If I was feeling perplexed. I'd take a 5ml on going to bed. It's not that potent but it helps.

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  • #734
Right, that's all the posts read - will call it a night

Forgot to add , the expert I found said "the second skull fracture happened 1-6 hours before death."*
Flutterby's post
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-trial-for-murder-of-daughter-Ellie-(6)/page8

JG got the call at 12.46
Arrived home at 1.50
2.46 amb called
Officially death declared on arrival at hospital at 4.01 but IDK Ellie's status prior to that, ( paramedics records)

Does that really mean death est to have occurred any time between 10 am and 3pm. It's a very wide range considering paramedics on scene checking all vitals, signs from around 3 ish and recording all that later.
Anyway, the crown's case is that JG perverted, not murdered herself and BB did this sometime before 12.46

We still have that weird evidence to figure out . From a previous post:

"10.45 JG arrives at work. Sutton Trains not running, trees down. Ms Bernstein said Gray had come into work and told her her partner was down in Cornwall, looking after his ill father, and that Ellie was being looked after by her godfather. Why use this – as an excuse for being late? Makes no sense, why is she lying ? She didn't need to lie for being late as Station Train station was closed. Makes no sense. What is she covering?" Presume she left home say 9.30 that morning?
It doesn't add up. I'm like open mouthed thinking . What did I just read..... it's a case of cross referencing. Times of 2nd fracture between 1-6 hours. Can they not call time of death? I guess they put time of death/non responsive either in ambulance or doa at hospital. :/

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  • #735
It doesn't add up. I'm like open mouthed thinking . What did I just read..... it's a case of cross referencing. Times of 2nd fracture between 1-6 hours. Can they not call time of death? I guess they put time of death/non responsive either in ambulance or doa at hospital. :/

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Do they have to call t.o.d from hospital. Even when there were no vitals from home?
Autopsy results? :/

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  • #736
Ugh... right while I'm still calm I'm off to bed with a hot chocolate. Night night ttyl. X

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  • #737
OK I get it, you mean if she actually heard Ellie, not just the DVD sound, she was the last person to hear her alive, adds culpability

OTOH as she has admitted to "perverting" c of j, maybe she has already come clean on this part of her testimony/changed her tune?

( I need to go back and look at the expert estimates of time of death. Look at the range. )

Do you think she will testify Gigi - appreciate you may not answer as you sound in pain
How can she not testify. Not testifying will just make her look like she's resigned to the fact that's she's guilty anyways.
I don't know how it's played out. But I know if you have a witness that's due to give evidence but unwilling for whatever to take the stand. It can be done by live link. I'm not sure if a document like a statement can be used if delivered by her QC .
Or in Very extreme cases. Shown by Video, recorded in private with her QC in attendance. But I do think she'll take the stand.. she's got a lot to say
. 😉

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  • #738
The 'grass' text was sent in March 2013 so it can't be connected with the day of Ellie's death
No no..... she's got something on him as he has her. Whether it's relevant to this case. Possibly.

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  • #739
IDK what they actually have but this is what UKCourt News reported

"The bloodstains of a six year old girl were found throughout her home after she was murdered by her father, a court heard Little Ellie's pillow was found stained with her blood after she was allegedly battered to death by frustrated house husband Ben Butler, 36, at their Sutton home.
Blood on a sofa cushion in the living room was also found to match her DNA profile after she suffered catastrophic head injuries similar to those caused by a high-speed car crash on 28 October 2013, the Old Bailey has heard.*

The girl's mother Jennie Gray, 36, left a trail of her own blood spatters along the walls of the hallway outside Ellie's bedroom to upstairs bathroom*
Today (Thurs)*forensic scientist Andrew Bell told jurors that the blood patterns appeared to be 'recent' and could have been caused by an 'impact' to Gray.*
'Wet dilute blood from Ellie Butler had been deposited onto the pillow,' said Mr Bell. 'In my opinion a bleeding Jennie Gray or an object wet with her blood had dripped blood onto the floor of Ellie Butler's bedroom and that drip-blood trail continued along the hallway into the bathroom"

That's all we got to hear
There is sooooo much more to this. Much much more.
For a catastrophic head trauma. A pillow with some blood. Doesn't strike me as a major injury would. In fact none that's described does. Has it been cleaned.... along with changes of clothes. Possibly. The 'Murder' site had been seriously contaminated by the time SOCO had got there. You've had BB & JG. The first responders. Ambulance team. Police. And whoever went into the crime scene before SOCO got to grips with it.
But I'm betting there's more evidence that will come out this week. Jmo

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  • #740
yes I agree it implies there was a reason before, that's the way I read it.
It's simply a way of pushing her buttons...... if you don't do this I will do that.... Nothing more. He was worried she might say to one of the nursing staff that he made her have the termination.... so he was demanding she came home so she couldn't tell his sordid lil secrets...

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