GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[cottonweaver]

sorry but still on the Guardian here.

What is he on?

He said fractures found on Ellie’s head had been caused while she was in foster care, at her grandfather’s or when she was in the care of the local authority.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/17/muder-accused-ben-butler-shock-daughters-death-court

experts said they found one old skull injury that could be matched to when she was 7 weeks old. The second old skull injury Freemont and
Mr Marnerides' estimated to have occurred two-to-four weeks before her death, third one is the fatal one.
So how could Ellie be at her foster,or at her grandfather’s or when she was in the care of the local authority at any of these times? He's told us Ellie was with him in 2007, on 11 Oct 2013 and on 28 Oct 2013.

 

[cottonweaver]

It's more interesting than that cottonw, he said he called his friend Ian because Ian had helped him before in 2007. Sounds to me as if Ian would say what BB wanted him to say. But this time of course, Ian wasn't in the same building, so what use would he be? It's crazy.

BIB You mean would not.....
ie. BB later found that Ian wouldn't play ball ?

Pls correct me but I thought Dan was in the "same building " in 2007. Ian wasn't at either incident.

PURE speculation but I was imagining he placed the call to Ian in order to have it recorded as data, to look as if nothing had happened and that at the time of the call, he could say "I wasn't aware of anything, Ellie was upstairs playing, I just had a normal chat to a mate, look it proves I knew nothing..."

Now he is spinning that data a different way - I was in such shock we talked about bank accounts & mundane stuff.

Bear with me everyone, I've come late to this and it all sounds surreal!

 

[cottonweaver]

god he is vile

"He said he was shocked when he was arrested. “No one actually knew what was wrong then,” he said, “and the postmortem didn’t know what was wrong for four months, but the decision was made to arrest me that night, they [Sutton police] jumped, they thought they had won the lottery”."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/17/muder-accused-ben-butler-shock-daughters-death-court

Yeah , you're really the most wanted crim in South London/Surrey! You're no big fish, just a squalid bottom- feeder Butler. Urgh.

 

[Gigi-G]

Well it's very cold there and the seats are hard. And there's about 7 flights of stairs to get up to the public gallery (with morning arrival, morning break, after lunch arrival and afternoon break that's a lot of steps). And you have to queue to go through a bag search every time. One women's toilet only. Expensive train fares and lunch (can't bring a packed lunch because no food allowed in the public gallery). Two really annoying idiots on trial. Have I put you off yet?

Lol no you haven't put me off. But I really would of loved to sit in

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[cottonweaver]

Tortoise - did BB actually speak to the jury at any point as per UL below? PS I Don't expect you to reply tonight - it must have been a very long day for you. I want to paste it in as I will forget tomorrow.

Butler reminded the jury that he had been the victim of a miscarriage of justice when he had a conviction for assaulting Ellie when she was seven weeks old overturned.

He repeated that he didn’t want to call the ambulance because he knew he would be wrongly framed, given his two-and-a-half-year battle to get Ellie out of foster care following his successful appeal.

“You ****ing destroyed our ****ing lives,” Butler said. “Not you personally, people we should trust had destroyed our lives. You ****ed us for five, six years, [so] by the way let’s trust you,” he said rhetorically.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/17/muder-accused-ben-butler-shock-daughters-death-court

PS good luck tomorrow , am expecting him or JG to have a tough time .

 

[Gigi-G]

Errrr
"Butler said he put a towel stained with some of Gray’s blood and some other items including a diary of hers in the bin because he sensed he would be blamed by police because of the previous overturned conviction for assaulting Ellie"

Gray's blood?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/17/muder-accused-ben-butler-shock-daughters-death-court

Am s******ing at his attempt to tailor the Ian Hudson call in to his "car accident freeze" BS
ETA that was snuggering with an i , but for some reason that is now banned on WS , blimey.

No doubt dog walking and "it's nasty out" will be the same - irrational shock.

Yet really when he did both those things, they were part of a cover-up. Placing calls, and texts about chilli tonight. He's changed his Defence version since then. Sneaky.

It will be the ngr add I between n and g and an e between g and r. It's just an auto response to banned words.

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[squish]

thinking this through - surely she'd had the abortion already because this was an admission to deal with the botched up termination, so in March she wasn't planning on having a 3rd baby, she'd already dealt with it, and therefore SS' 'concerns' about her not coping with 3 must be a lie.

goodness me where do the lies start or end...

Is there any evidence that she had the abortion due to it being ectopic?

Because didn't she say that the baby was a boy? If so, I think the baby's sex is only discovered at the 20 week scan, which is far later than most ectopic pregnancies are treated.

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise - did BB actually speak to the jury at any point as per UL below? PS I Don't expect you to reply tonight - it must have been a very long day for you. I want to paste it in as I will forget tomorrow.



http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/17/muder-accused-ben-butler-shock-daughters-death-court

PS good luck tomorrow , am expecting him or JG to have a tough time .

he speaks to the jury, yes - but that's what he is supposed to do.

only problem with being in the public gallery is the witness box is facing the same way as the gallery, so you only get to see side view of his face and his back, so can't really pick up his facial expressions.

JG won't get to speak tomorrow, I think BB will be in there for another 2 full days at least.

 

[cottonweaver]

Honestly guys it is so hard to keep track of these "stories".
Baby sex- brilliant point - all I remember squish is her undated letter "Dear Jesus, dear beautiful goddess and most (illegible) God. Please make my home.. Ellie, Ben and I all happy together as a family. Please don't let Ben leave me but make him learn to like me. Stop violence and make him WANT ME and be there at the birth if I have a baby boy.' found in police search

and then the March 16th text

“I will take as long as hospital want me to not what U want Just remember this is all your fault. While U lay there know and remember what I did and U made me kill an unborn baby boy.”

How would she know she had aborted a male foetus. They would not tell you in Jan when the abortion was performed and they wouldn't know during the complications/D&C or whatever in March !


Also Tortoise , your post

When JG was admitted to hospital in March 2013 (with complications from ectopic pregnancy/failed abortion - and injuries) she admitted herself under a false name again. BB says this was because SS had said they would take the two children back into care because they did not think JG could cope as a mother to 3 children.

I would like to know what that's all about. If it's true, because I just have to doubt everything he says, who assessed her as being able to cope with 2 but not 3? Why did they have ANY concerns about her? Why did they risk Ellie and her sister in her care if they had concerns about her?

IDK the answer to that but it's interesting to recall that in January - on 2nd day of new school term - Social Services contacted the school because they had discovered JG had been admitted to hospital- SS got back in touch with school and said she was with her father.

SS knew her whereabouts in Jan, even if she went in during Jan for the abortion under a false name too, besides March . ( Again this is school head testimony day so I hope this is correct.)

I think they have got so used to lying. She does it as a matter of course. He now covers for his pushing JG to keep terminating pregnancies by blaming it on anything/anyone - SServices, threat of child removal.....I don't think we can trust anything he says unless it is substantiated by another witness.

 

[Tortoise]

Agree absolutely cw, it is impossible to tell what happened at any time from his testimony - have to rely on texts and other such evidence.

 

[cottonweaver]

he speaks to the jury, yes - but that's what he is supposed to do.

only problem with being in the public gallery is the witness box is facing the same way as the gallery, so you only get to see side view of his face and his back, so can't really pick up his facial expressions.

JG won't get to speak tomorrow, I think BB will be in there for another 2 full days at least.

Ah - you can't see his face.
I'm not keen on that addressing the jury - even though they will make the decision, i always think it looks self-serving. I've never been a defendent, only a witness a couple of times and I "faced" the QC when answering q's.
(Jury can scrutinise me/my face, without me eye contacting/selling/forcing it on them - do you know what I mean? Personal preference, but maybe it helped to get a couple of people convicted IDK? )

 

[cottonweaver]

Agree absolutely cw, it is impossible to tell what happened at any time from his testimony - have to rely on texts and other such evidence.

Good luck tomorrow, I am going to read these 9! other links in bed - only got thru the Guardian. After another day of him you are going to be exhausted.

 

[Gigi-G]

Gosh.... one place I wouldn't like to be.
That's very very scary if prisoners are being recruited for isis in there :0

Belmarsh maximum security jail is 'like a jihadi training camp' http://dailym.ai/1Xja5WQ via http://dailym.ai/android

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[cottonweaver]

he speaks to the jury, yes - but that's what he is supposed to do.

only problem with being in the public gallery is the witness box is facing the same way as the gallery, so you only get to see side view of his face and his back, so can't really pick up his facial expressions.

JG won't get to speak tomorrow, I think BB will be in there for another 2 full days at least.

apols, i need to be clearer, my BAD

I was imagining her jumping the dock in his defence( when he gets a grilling) and going on a rampage!!!

Pity she couldn't be the protective lioness over her own kids eh!

 

[squish]

I believe BB when he tells of his visceral shock at finding his daughter lying down still, with her eyes wide open. I do not think he intended to kill her.

Poor Ellie had been like a cat with nine lives, surviving several extreme assaults at the hands her father without visible harm (that he could see). She probably survived many more, less serious assaults that we will never know about.

At 7 weeks old, after he shook her she wasn't expected to survive the night, and if she did they thought she would be severely disabled. But she made a full recovery.

She also seemed to recover from whatever caused the skull fracture that was over one year old, from whatever caused the rebound brain injury (I can't remember what it was called), from whatever caused her scapula to break, from whatever caused her spinal injuries, and from whatever caused her second skull fracture a couple of weeks before her death.

She had been so resilient to survive so many serious assaults, that I think BB did not realise anymore exactly how damaging his assaults were.

I think he inflicted yet another serious assault on her that morning and knocked her unconscious, and thought she would just wake up again after a few hours like she usually did.

But this time he had gone too far. I believe he was genuinely shocked to find her lying dead with her eyes open.

What I don't understand is why he is going down the route of being so shocked and scared that he delayed calling an ambulance for his severely injured daughter. Even if he was innocent it just makes him look incredibly selfish, that he was more bothered about himself getting into trouble, than he was about his daughter's health and survival.

(On that note, surely most parents worst fears for their children are along the lines of getting abducted, getting cancer, getting hit by a car etc. NOT self centred fears that they will be blamed for their child's accidental death).

He'd be better off saying that she was dead or so close to it that she was beyond help, which is why he didn't bother phoning 999 immediately. I guess that he doesn't want to contradict his and JG's previous storytelling, and their acting to 999 like they'd just found her, and allowing them to try to resuscitate her.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm going to type up the day of Ellie's death - might take a little while so I don't forget anything.

While I remember, I have some thoughts about the cremation.

He is blaming the 'mafia' (read the establishment, or the whole world) for Ellie's cremation, and therefore the permanent removal of evidence that would exonerate them.

So that we don't lose sight of the truth of the matter, I note that it was the grandparents who arranged the funeral. The crown did not decide that Ellie must be cremated instead of buried.

Brown put it to him that the release of Ellie's body had been authorised by both sets of solicitors.

BB said his solicitors had agreed without his consent. Those solicitors no longer represent him.

I find this extraordinarily hard to believe. I think what probably happened was he gave consent (they perhaps have not been asked to defend their actions - maybe don't even know before trial he would make this bizarre claim) and it was given so that they would cremate Ellie, SO THAT he could say the proof is gone, you've stitched us up....

What makes me doubt him (apart from the fact that he can't be trusted) is that his experts attended and took samples. I'm sure Brown will get to the bottom of it during x-exam anyway.

 

[Tortoise]

Day before Ellie's death - 27th October 2013

JG took the girls to see the grandparents at McDonalds. BB did not go. They brought along cake for the girls to take home.
That night St Jude storm hit. BB and JG brought inside the garden furniture from their balcony. He said somehow or other that was how the curtain pole came down in their front room.
JG slept downstairs with him (on the other sofa) because she didn't like the storm.
He took Nytol Herbal (a sleeping remedy - because he sleeps badly since 2007)

Day of Ellie's death - 28th October

It was the first Monday of half term.
BB had planned a lazy day because he had a lot of other activities planned for the girls for the rest of the week.
He was going to take them shopping later on for halloween costumes.

JG couldn't decide whether to go to work because of the train problems due to storm damage, but she eventually left well past 9.
She texted BB several times on her journey to work - lots of "babe" this and that and kisses

Mid morning he made the girls jam sandwiches and crisps and drink and took them upstairs for them to eat in their separate rooms, not together. Said they had a small table each in their bedrooms.
He went to sleep on the sofa. (Nytol relevance?)
He missed JG's texts because his phone was off, so he doesn't know what time or how long he slept.

When he woke up he switched his phone on and saw JG's texts. Replied "ok" to them.
He texted JG and said how about a chilli tonight - told court Jen makes a mean chilli.
He decided to get up and do Monday's chores - washing up, hoovering, putting the clothes away - Jen never ever cleans or tidies, she's lives in a mess

After that (I'm guessing we're up to about midday now) he decided to cut up the cake that grandparents had brought for the girls.
He called them and they didn't answer, not unusual.
So he went upstairs.

He 'quickly' opened Ellie's door.
He first noticed sister on the sofa, 'watching TV or looking at something'
Then he noticed Ellie, laying on her back, feet towards the wardrobe, eyes open.

[It's the exact same problem I noticed with the 6 week old injury - he notices emergencies straight off without any rationale for doing so. Then it was the floppy arms (while Ellie was sleeping, which baby wouldn't have relaxed arms while sleeping?). This time it's lying down with eyes open. Who wouldn't think at first they're playing a game, what you doing laying down Ellie? Or think maybe she's just knocked herself out. But he knew at first sight that this was critical, before he'd even moved into the room. He went into shock instantly. I also can't understand why sister would have just carried on watching TV - if Ellie had fallen and then not moved. I think she would have tried to help Ellie or get Daddy at 4 yrs old.]

He never asked sister what had happened. Told her to go to her own bedroom.
He tried shaking Ellie and giving her the kiss of life.
He then moved out of the room and closed the door. So I'm thinking 12:15/12:30?
Went downstairs and laid down on the floor. For quite a while. crying

Phoned JG and didn't tell her anything about what had happened. Just said she had to come home because he needed to talk to her.
When she phoned him in the cab it was very brief, she asked what it was about and he wouldn't tell her because she would have insisted upon calling an ambulance.
He phoned Ian, because he had helped him before. But didn't tell him either.

When JG got home he said (to court not to JG) they couldn't call an ambulance because of the miscarriage of justice in 2007 and because he hadn't already called an ambulance.
ETA: He told JG he thought Ellie was dead.
He said the problem of not calling an ambulance was created out of his initial failure to act.
'There was no fight with JG or recent bleeding by JG'
He decided he needed some air.
So he picked up the 5 bags of rubbish that were already waiting there ready to go out to the bins, saw an old towel on his way to the door, that JG had used before when she was bleeding (March??) because he thought the ambulance people would think they had tended to Ellie with it already and hadn't therefore just discovered her when they called, and took Millie with him to the bins further away from the house (not the closest bins)
He didn't smile or wave at anyone, that's f'ing ridiculous, he was in shock not smiling,
He told JG to get changed so that they wouldn't think she had just returned from work and had been at home anyway

They did not wash any clothes - that's more f'ing rubbish - notice how the police never photographed the f'ing washing machine?!!

They did not dispose of JG's diary pages that day - they had been thrown in that bin weeks ago when he first discovered them!
No he didn't know how often the communal bins are emptied!

When he got back with Millie, sister went back upstairs and into Ellie's room and said she still hadn't woken up
That is what prompted him to phone for the ambulance.
If she hadn't gone up then he thinks it wouldn't have happened until much later.

 

[cottonweaver]

You're spoiling us T with your court feedback!

You missed a career here, if it weren't for the restrictions, it would have made a great blog like J13's for the OP case. ( Not flattery, I mean it and I know everyone else feels the same. )

Yes - what solicitor approves a cremation without speaking to their client.
Oh that's convenient, they are not here to give evidence because he has sacked them off! ( Can you really see the old solic giving evidence or providing an affidavit?)
Its like young sis, she's in the version now.
Goodness knows about this Ian fellow - ID know what to think


The "mafia", the system. It's staggering that he has blamed everything that went wrong in their lives down to persecution by them. Being "fitted up guv'" .
Now he is extending this line further, to breaking point - that's why he delayed and staged it all in the aftermath, that's why he covered up each prior assault.
What a total &*%$+! opportunist he is.

This is going to be her excuse too - and I would lose my youngest.


honestly, as per the other night's posts - I would not be surprised if she avoided the funeral. She wouldn't be able to face it nor the other mourners. JG seems to find it hard to cope with reality. Remember the letter that says - let the docs at the hospital keep me in.
( Yes she was one of his victims but she facilitated this killing IMO )

that pre Nov 2012 letter , from a previous post

Please let Ben become completely supportive. Do not let it be true about Lauren or anyone else. -that one mentions her praying to get Ellie & sister back and a company Williams and time off that she needs and a grievance hopes is not going ahead, prayers for £ loans., prayers for back surgery, consultant tests, “make it so I have to have surgery”

T
he hosp docs are trying to discharge her , she wants to stay in, rather than go back to him, understandably

March 2013 she wants to stay in hosp again, to the extent he threatens her if she won't come out. ( I'm not seeking to diminish her pain and weariness at the termination complication etc just trying to say she tends to stick her head in the sand, an escapist. I also think she should get a custodial. I am NOT sure she has never hit Ellie either, I don't thick she would have committed ABH on Ellie, but it is JG that wrote the Ellie list that also mentions" don't feel you can trust her" or wtte. )

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks cottonw!

 

[Gigi-G]

I believe BB when he tells of his visceral shock at finding his daughter lying down still, with her eyes wide open. I do not think he intended to kill her.

Poor Ellie had been like a cat with nine lives, surviving several extreme assaults at the hands her father without visible harm (that he could see). She probably survived many more, less serious assaults that we will never know about.

At 7 weeks old, after he shook her she wasn't expected to survive the night, and if she did they thought she would be severely disabled. But she made a full recovery.

She also seemed to recover from whatever caused the skull fracture that was over one year old, from whatever caused the rebound brain injury (I can't remember what it was called), from whatever caused her scapula to break, from whatever caused her spinal injuries, and from whatever caused her second skull fracture a couple of weeks before her death.

She had been so resilient to survive so many serious assaults, that I think BB did not realise anymore exactly how damaging his assaults were.

I think he inflicted yet another serious assault on her that morning and knocked her unconscious, and thought she would just wake up again after a few hours like she usually did.

But this time he had gone too far. I believe he was genuinely shocked to find her lying dead with her eyes open.

What I don't understand is why he is going down the route of being so shocked and scared that he delayed calling an ambulance for his severely injured daughter. Even if he was innocent it just makes him look incredibly selfish, that he was more bothered about himself getting into trouble, than he was about his daughter's health and survival.

(On that note, surely most parents worst fears for their children are along the lines of getting abducted, getting cancer, getting hit by a car etc. NOT self centred fears that they will be blamed for their child's accidental death).

He'd be better off saying that she was dead or so close to it that she was beyond help, which is why he didn't bother phoning 999 immediately. I guess that he doesn't want to contradict his and JG's previous storytelling, and their acting to 999 like they'd just found her, and allowing them to try to resuscitate her.

I can see what you're saying Squish. And I agree with it on the most part. It does seem as she had been the brunt of his rage many a time. Thru the grievances that BB & JG found over the past 11 months since she'd been back home in the (supposed) care of her parents.
Seemingly to have 9 lives such as a cat. I think the aggravating factor were the things JG had written about. JG wrote a living prayer. JG also sought help from White Witches. In the spells she asked for BB to love her want her and to bed a family.
JG wanted a proper family unit. BB did not. A pregnancy 8 weeks after initial meeting. Was a train wreck waiting to happen.
Ellie since being back with her parents and sibling became more and more defiant. Whether it's becuz she felt left out as sibling was the one getting all the intention.
So Ellie fought back. She had an imaginary friend. She answered back. Became defiant. Started wetting the bed. Wouldn't do as she was told. Wet herself as if she'd forgot to use the bathroom. I think all this enraged BB more and more. Pushing him to the edge.
Till he lost it.
Whether he meant to or not. It may not of been pre med but it enraged him so much the the Base of her skull caved in.
What we don't know is. HOW.
If it was a blow. With what? No weapon detected as far as we know.
Against a wall? No evidence yet shown to suggest this was C O D.
Against a radiator in her room. No evidence yet as C O D.
there were numerous solid structures that could of caused blunt force trauma in her room.
Unless Prosecution pulls out that one piece of evidence. We are still none the wiser.

He will play along. Their trump card now is pushing no faith in the Specialists evidence and the cremation of Ellie without their knowledge. Even though it's been stated that messages regarding this had gone to legal teams. G.ps had asked for Ellie to be treated with respect. After a correct period of time it was deemed that they should be able to arrange a funeral for Ellie...

Sorry I kinda essay'ed. I just woke up n my mind exploded. :/

But I agree

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