GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[PrimeSuspect]

I believe BB when he tells of his visceral shock at finding his daughter lying down still, with her eyes wide open. I do not think he intended to kill her.

Poor Ellie had been like a cat with nine lives, surviving several extreme assaults at the hands her father without visible harm (that he could see). She probably survived many more, less serious assaults that we will never know about.

At 7 weeks old, after he shook her she wasn't expected to survive the night, and if she did they thought she would be severely disabled. But she made a full recovery.

She also seemed to recover from whatever caused the skull fracture that was over one year old, from whatever caused the rebound brain injury (I can't remember what it was called), from whatever caused her scapula to break, from whatever caused her spinal injuries, and from whatever caused her second skull fracture a couple of weeks before her death.

She had been so resilient to survive so many serious assaults, that I think BB did not realise anymore exactly how damaging his assaults were.

I think he inflicted yet another serious assault on her that morning and knocked her unconscious, and thought she would just wake up again after a few hours like she usually did.

But this time he had gone too far. I believe he was genuinely shocked to find her lying dead with her eyes open.

What I don't understand is why he is going down the route of being so shocked and scared that he delayed calling an ambulance for his severely injured daughter. Even if he was innocent it just makes him look incredibly selfish, that he was more bothered about himself getting into trouble, than he was about his daughter's health and survival.

(On that note, surely most parents worst fears for their children are along the lines of getting abducted, getting cancer, getting hit by a car etc. NOT self centred fears that they will be blamed for their child's accidental death).

He'd be better off saying that she was dead or so close to it that she was beyond help, which is why he didn't bother phoning 999 immediately. I guess that he doesn't want to contradict his and JG's previous storytelling, and their acting to 999 like they'd just found her, and allowing them to try to resuscitate her.

IMO, BB must have had fights in his life, he knew the pain a beating will cause yet he didn't care that his tiny daughter endured excruciating pain at his hands. BB is a heartless human being and knew what he was doing. BB didn't want Ellie to die, he wanted her to remain and be his punching bag for as long as he needed an outlet. She represented everything that was wrong with his life. This kind of thinking is against most people's nature, why should Ellie or anyone pay for his shortcomings?
A 'normal' person knows striking a child or even an adult, will cause pain, if BB can't understand that, he's not normal. He's a sadistic monster, imo. If I slapped his face, he'd recoil in pain, he'd understand that. He feels better when he's inflicting pain, he's a sadistic freak. I hope he rots in prison.

 

[Supernovae]

It seems likely that he hit her head so hard against a surface that the back of her skull caved in. He may very well have been in shock, but I find it difficult to believe that he could have been in any real doubt, in that moment, about what he had done.

 

[Supernovae]

I think he's trying to hint that she had an eggshell skull, and this is how the damage was caused by the "Peppa Pig" fall.

 

[Tortoise]

It seems likely to me now that JG's text about him grassing on her was to do with her splitting his jaw, when he beat her up. She checked in to hospital in March under a false name, not because she was worried about SS finding out about a 3rd child that she was having aborted, (no logic in his claim that they would remove the children if she had a 3rd child - if she was getting rid of it) but because of the violence and injuries she had.

He is doing JG no favours by revealing her confrontational nature and her drunkeness and violence. That household was not the joyful haven for the children he is trying to portray.

 

[cottonweaver]

It seems likely to me now that JG's text about him grassing on her was to do with her splitting his jaw, when he beat her up. She checked in to hospital in March under a false name, not because she was worried about SS finding out about a 3rd child that she was having aborted, (no logic in his claim that they would remove the children if she had a 3rd child - if she was getting rid of it) but because of the violence and injuries she had.

He is doing JG no favours by revealing her confrontational nature and her drunkeness and violence. That household was not the joyful haven for the children he is trying to portray.

BIB Could well be, it kind of fits with this text, evidencing a scrap , but she could also point to her own injuries and her self defence:

"In one, Gray said: ‘I am so tired now and are getting letter. Hopefully my face and eyes come back. But u rest up. U had enough, me too. I had enough being in hosp too. Enough your lack of support and making things harder." ( undated but likely March text from hosp)

OTOH she said in the "grass" text " for no reason." So I''m sticking with your first interpretation for now. It's something else, maybe she is drunk every night and she is a "bad mum" etc

IMO he has to keep lying to cover the terminations - it doesn't look good he is forcing her to abort when he is on trial as a child-killing child abuser - otherwise he is going to look as if he is getting her pregnant and then wants to terminate.....so he lies with any story that fits with his Defence of "persecution". She lies as a matter of course. He is happy for her to lie when she is away for long stretches in hosp , keeps the snooping SServices from his door enquiring about two kids in his sole care.

 

[cottonweaver]

I believe BB when he tells of his visceral shock at finding his daughter lying down still, with her eyes wide open. I do not think he intended to kill her.

Poor Ellie had been like a cat with nine lives, surviving several extreme assaults at the hands her father without visible harm (that he could see). She probably survived many more, less serious assaults that we will never know about.

At 7 weeks old, after he shook her she wasn't expected to survive the night, and if she did they thought she would be severely disabled. But she made a full recovery.

She also seemed to recover from whatever caused the skull fracture that was over one year old, from whatever caused the rebound brain injury (I can't remember what it was called), from whatever caused her scapula to break, from whatever caused her spinal injuries, and from whatever caused her second skull fracture a couple of weeks before her death.

She had been so resilient to survive so many serious assaults, that I think BB did not realise anymore exactly how damaging his assaults were.

I think he inflicted yet another serious assault on her that morning and knocked her unconscious, and thought she would just wake up again after a few hours like she usually did.

But this time he had gone too far. I believe he was genuinely shocked to find her lying dead with her eyes open.

What I don't understand is why he is going down the route of being so shocked and scared that he delayed calling an ambulance for his severely injured daughter. Even if he was innocent it just makes him look incredibly selfish, that he was more bothered about himself getting into trouble, than he was about his daughter's health and survival.

(On that note, surely most parents worst fears for their children are along the lines of getting abducted, getting cancer, getting hit by a car etc. NOT self centred fears that they will be blamed for their child's accidental death).

He'd be better off saying that she was dead or so close to it that she was beyond help, which is why he didn't bother phoning 999 immediately. I guess that he doesn't want to contradict his and JG's previous storytelling, and their acting to 999 like they'd just found her, and allowing them to try to resuscitate her.

Sorry about the length of this reply, can't make it shorter whilst still being clear

I'm still on the fence with this he intended to kill her. Open mind as anything is possible with this freak and he is always self-serving – whether wanting to beat but NOT kill as it means more trouble for him OR wanting to kill to shut down a witness/risk full stop. Putting that aside question though....

I agree he may have felt “visceral shock*“ squish if it was unintentional. However this freeze action could just be filling a crucial time gap. The huge issue for his testimony is what was he doing before and after killing. Sleeping? Then lying down in shock? It's all convenient.
Plus he has to testify to shock and distress to overcome how callous the staging looks.
I agree Elllie was resilient, young bones do mend but I think he knew what he was doing and that there was a risk – she had been knocked unconscious before. And I believe he must have known he had done serious damage before, just due to her symptoms, pain etc. I totally agree that in 2007 he would not have known how easy SBS was, how fragile she was, don't think a lot of young parents ( esp men) perhaps know, sadly.

I agree with Gigi that Ellie may have been more “defiant” as she was a”normal” kid, brought up in a presumably well-adjusted family home ( gramps) and I still think she would have blurted out, at least once, that she wanted to go back to them, maybe even on the 28th but that's by the by.....

I don't think he found her lying with her eyes wide open. Maybe her eyes were open( he has stitched in a few true elements) but he has just assaulted her and is over the top of her. I agree with you, I can see him attacking and then walking away callously, coming back later and being shocked she is totally unresponsive and he tests for vitals.

"What I don't understand is why he is going down the route of being so shocked and scared that he delayed calling an ambulance for his severely injured daughter. Even if he was innocent it just makes him look incredibly selfish,"
He has to say that as he admits himself that the delay and staging have to be explained, are the “worst” part , make it look “more suspicious”. So he has to have a reason for the delay. You're right the jury will just think he is selfish and thinking about number 1. In that hour or so between him calling JG and her getting home he must have been frantic trying to think up how he was going to tailor all this. He may even have been “frozen”, couldn't think straight and “lay on the floor” whilst he grappled with the enormity of the challenge – thinking to himself how the hell was he going to get out of this one!!!?

He comes up with " Plan A "which is act normally but get rid of incrim evidence: Call JG, pathologists won't be able to time her injury that accurately, JG will say nothing at work , she can come home early for no reason, we'll pretend it happened later on not when I was alone with Ellie , that there was no delay and no cover – up. ( He didnt factor in JG may give the game away to taxi driver & colleagues)

Right action on Plan A – BB asks himself what would I do if I was innocent? – Ummm act normally, ok let me phone someone and chat about nothing, send some blase texts eg about tonight's dinner, scour the house for blood signs ( weapons?), check Ellie's injuries, ***** what am I going to do about youngest sis, what has she seen/heard? Right when JG gets in I will walk the dog, we'll get JG to “find” Ellie. We'll get the distress onto a 999 tape, how am I going to say this happened......panic, rush around, ...

However now much later the 999 tape is a big problem, as you say all that JG resus with all that brazen lying. For different reasons some of his Plan A is now wrong – actions that are blasé – dog, neighbour waves & weather chat, chilli tonight.....as now he has to be in deep shock n fear.

I agree “He'd be better off saying that she was dead or so close to it that she was beyond help”. But that would be plausible if they had not done the cover- up actions and the faked drama on the 999.

( Anyway I think you are thinking what the jury are thinking right now– this doesn't make sense...)
Plan A ingredients plus Defence B = a bad fit, so his testimony is gobbleydook

 

[cottonweaver]

I think he's trying to hint that she had an eggshell skull, and this is how the damage was caused by the "Peppa Pig" fall.

Yes, he has said she is so unique, as per 2007 too

So unique that she can sustain catastrophic injuries falling from a chair
So unique, that a fractured shoulder causes her no discomfort
So unique that he can concuss her in the past but he knew she would be ok, even if she vomited.

 

[cottonweaver]

Whether he meant to or not. It may not of been pre med but it enraged him so much the the Base of her skull caved in.
What we don't know is. HOW.
If it was a blow. With what? No weapon detected as far as we know.
Against a wall? No evidence yet shown to suggest this was C O D.
Against a radiator in her room. No evidence yet as C O D.
there were numerous solid structures that could of caused blunt force trauma in her room.
Unless Prosecution pulls out that one piece of evidence. We are still none the wiser.

BIB I agree, we are missing vital evidence, I don't get it, hopefully it will be revealed later ?

 

[cottonweaver]

JG's nose in that pic looks askew, as though it has been broken or squashed and it hasn't healed right.

Only just seen your JG photo - yes it does Squish

http://courtnewsuk.co.uk/killer-dad-claims-partner-split-jaw/

her old photo - taken prior to feb 2011, obv a different angle too...
http://www.edp24.co.uk/polopoly_fs/..._gen/derivatives/landscape_630/3566822733.jpg

 

[cottonweaver]

I think LB will do the tweets ?

If not, I'll do them

 

[cottonweaver]

16 minis ago

But despite only making the call at 2.46pm, Butler claimed the emotions in the 15-minute 999 call were real.

Jurors were today (WED) again played the harrowing recording in which Butler and Gray screamed for an ambulance.

Much of the frantic phone call is hard to make out as the couple shout at the operator for help.

Gray is heard to say: ‘Listen to me now. My daughter’s not breathing properly, she’s collapsed, she’s not moving and I have to get an ambulance.’

After the operator asks if she is breathing, Gray responds: ‘She’s not breathing, she’s trying to breathe. What do I do know?’

Butler can be heard to say: ‘I just come upstairs, my little girl has fallen down…and she’s laying there, she’s always falling.’.....

Gray can then be heard counting compressions as she is instructed how to perform CPR.

Prosecutor Ed Brown QC suggested to Butler: ‘You were there on the phone blaming a person who was trying to help you for delaying when you had sat on her death for two hours.’

Butler asked: ‘Why did I sit on her death?’

‘Because you killed her,’ said the QC.

Butler said: ‘No, not at all. Because your mistakes in 2007 was the only reason I reacted like that.’

Jurors have heard there was another child in the house at the time, whose voice can be heard on the recording saying: ‘I tried to wake her up but she didn’t wake up.’[/B]

Butler insisted he had tried not to involve the other child.....
The prosecutor said: ‘I suggest that this 999 call, together with your cover-up that had happened for two hours and was to continue, these terrible actions by you, helped by Jennie Gray could only have been taken by a man who truly has something to hide.’

Butler blamed his actions on the events of 2007 when he claims he rushed his daughter to hospital helping to save her life.

‘I accept this is wrong. The mistake was made when I didn’t call the anvils straight away,’ he said.

‘The minute I didn’t call the ambulance and called Jennie. It’s one mistake after another.

‘We dug ourselves deeper and what do you do?’

Paramedics arrived minutes later to find Ellie lying on her back in her bedroom at the foot of a wardrobe.

http://courtnewsuk.co.uk/killed-qc-...ing-daughter-death/?fb_ref=T=ZDIJJrq6-Twitter

I said they would have used the younger child for that staging , to leave her with those appalling memories, looks like it could be true. Heinous.

 

[cottonweaver]

Alleged child killer and Everton fan Ben Butler compares his plight to that of the families of Hillsborough victims in latest court rant

[video=twitter;732876238524710912]https://twitter.com/CourtNewsUK/status/732876238524710912[/video]

QC tells accused child killer Ben Butler that comparing himself to families of Hillsborough victims is off topic - 'even by your standards.'

LOL

Butler: 'The families, they were fighting for justice like we were, and a lady come on... The problem is you don't see the ripple effect.'

This guy can be found on the David Icke forum late into the small hours.!!! I bet.

 

[cottonweaver]

btw

yesterday actually he got tearful, apparently

He also told the youngest to go play dress up whilst he investigated Ellie.

Becoming emotional, Butler went on: "I'm sorry I let you down. It took all the breath away from my body. I did not expect to see that.

"I put (the other child) in the other room and said go play dress up, and I dropped to my knees. I couldn't move. I couldn't breathe properly. I didn't help the way I should have helped.

so is he implying panic attack? seeing as yesterday he said "i suffer from anxiety"

and as already reported

"I tried to shake her. She didn't respond to what I did. I tried to breathe in her mouth. It just took the wind out of my sails. I still don't know why I didn't do more."

Butler walked out and shut the door behind him, he said, adding: "I was in shock. The only way to describe it is if you have a car accident, everything goes slow. I felt like all the wind had come out of my sails. I went downstairs and lay on the floor."

final extract to show blame sharing again ?

"When Gray arrived home she asked what was wrong, and Butler replied: "I'm not sure but I think Ellie might be dead."
She became "hysterical" as she saw her daughter lying on the floor, the court heard.
Butler went on: "This was our worst nightmare after everything that happened before.Originally I was just concerned how we are going to look because I hadn't called the ambulance and I hadn't been watching them."

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...daughter_weeps_over_ambulance_call__mistake_/

 

[Legally Bland]

I think LB will do the tweets ?

If not, I'll do them

Hi, I might not be around too much today, just when I can. If you could do them that would be great.

Thanks

 

[Legally Bland]

The Hillsborough comparison... This is nuts.

 

[cottonweaver]

nothng much happening guys-

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK 1h1 hour ago
Ben Butler claims he offered to take a lie detector test to prove his innocence but was told the results are inadmissable in a court of law

[video=twitter;732902784186585090]https://twitter.com/CourtNewsUK/status/732902784186585090[/video]

Wondered when he would mention something a la Jeremy Kyle!
Doubtless He would've already known that was inadmissable (from his 2009 trial and from daytime TV) before he suggested it, plus he is a 'career criminal" in that he has a long record!

 

[cottonweaver]

Guardian 1 pm report now in

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-for-justice-to-that-of-hillsborough-families

After being accused by the prosecutor of deflecting all the blame for Ellie’s death away from the evidence and on to anyone but himself, Butler told jurors: “I was watching the Hillsborough thing the other night,” he said in reference to a BBC documentary on the disaster in which 96 people lost their lives.

“The families in it [the documentary], they were fighting for justice just like we were, and a lady came on and said, ‘The problem you don’t see is the ripple effect and that one action has on everyone’s life,’” said Butler.

“That 2007 [injury to Ellie] had a ripple effect on everyone’s lives,” he told jurors.
.....
He said he had suffered “unbelievable loss and pain” and that at times he “hated” his partner Jennie Gray because of the illness she suffered as a direct consequence of the miscarriage of justice and the absence of Ellie from their lives.

“There were times I’m having to pick her up off the floor every day because she’s drunk and drinking, she’s trying to kill herself … putting pills in her mouth and me trying to get them out,” he said.

.....Butler said Brown had got it all wrong and he needed to accept that he had not assaulted Ellie when she was seven weeks old, but had “saved her life”.

“I rushed my daughter to hospital, I probably saved her life that day and all of a sudden I’m in a seven-year court battle,” he said in reference to his appeal followed by a battle to be reunited with Ellie in the family courts.

snipped

BIB presume this is the JG depression - well maybe this was caused by his beatings, not "the system"
Saved her life in 2007 by putting his fingers down her throat and moving the airway cyst - same old, same old

 

[cottonweaver]

Well, from Brown's cross, we have the answer that Ellie was certainly dead by the time the paramedics arrived around 3.
It never seemed clear due to the 4.00pm official announcement of her death.

Brown says he "sat on her death" for two hours and then "injected a sense of urgency" by " deliberately deceiving "the call handler that E was still alive.

So far in all his accounts of "discovering" her body, I have never heard him describe checking for vitals and that he knew she was dead at "discovery" . Naturally that seems significant but if Tortoise has gone today she will know better on the what was actually said.

Some snippets of the charade for the paramedics, from previous posts, about Oct 28th 2013:

JG tells cops in her interview that when the paramedics arrived minutes after the 999, Gray tearfully recalled: 'I said please, please, please, please bring my baby back.'

Mr Gmach ( paramedic) Saw Ellie Lying On Her Back By A Wardrobe Wearing Pink Pyjamas With Her Mother Nearby.He Said: ‘She Was Sitting Next To Ellie On A Chair Or Sofa Shaking, Screaming, Saying Quite Loudly, “You're Strong Like Mummy, You Will Be Fine,”
another ambulance worker said she said 'Please come back so we can have cupcakes again together'.


Later on around 4pm, when she is declared dead:
"JG said she then had to tell Butler, who arrived at the hospital separately, his daughter had died.
'He just went to pieces,' she sobbed. 'He said: 'No, it's our little baby'. "( From Police interview 29th oct.)

What a pair of fakes, all the while knowing she is dead. Hard to believe JG could do those endless chest compressions on her lifeless fragile body knowing she was dead.

 

[cottonweaver]

No more court reports at the moment

Re-cap on the transcript of the 999 that the jury heard again today.

Gray: Ellie come on.... (shouting) get an ambulance immediately please
Operator: Do you require police or ambulance?
Gray: Ambulance please ambulance
Operator: Are you saying Police or Ambulance?
Gray: Ambulance.
London Ambulance Service (LAS): Ambulance Service, what's the address of the emergency?
Gray: (shouting) ** Westover Close
(inaudible shouting and screaming)
Gray: I can't hear you
LAS: Hello?
Gray: It's ** Westover Close (shouting and screaming)
LAS: It's the ambulance service what's the address?
Gray: Ambulance yes!
LAS: Ok what's the address?
Gray: ** Westover Close
Butler: She's not breathing Jen
Gray: It's my daughter, she's not breathing hurry up
LAS: Ok I need you to stop shouting so I can get the address, ok. Hello?
Gray: It's **
Butler: Jen she's not breathing now
Gray: Westover Close
LAS: Ok I need you to stop shouting darling cos...
Gray: Will you tell her please I can't tell her
Butler: Stop shouting, she's not breathing
LAS: OK Westover close, yeah
Butler: ** Westover Close, I said she's not breathing
LAS: Ok what area is that in?
Butler: What happened?
LAS: Hello?
Gray: I tried to wake her up but she didn't wake up.
Butler: Hello can you hear me?
LAS: Yeah I can hear you, I need an address so I can get some help to you?
Butler: F*** sake, I told you five times.
Gray: Told her four times
LAS: But I can't hear you because everybody is shouting.
Butler: ** Westover Close - can you hear that?
LAS: Ok what area is that in?
Butler: Sutton, Surrey, oh my God.
LAS: Ok what is your telephone number?
Butler: I don't know, I don't know, my f******... you don't understand this is serious.
LAS: Ok but what is, I don't know what's happening, you're gonna have to tell me what's happening?
(The ambulance service operator repeatedly asks the pair to stop shouting so she can find out what happened.)
Butler: What is wrong with you love, I've told you the f****** number about ten times.
LAS: I can't hear what you're saying because you're distorting the line when you're yelling at me
Butler: For f***'* sake... ** Westover Close, I've told you.
LAS: I have the address sir but I need to help you so what's happened, tell me what's happened?
Butler: I don't know, I don't know, I just come upstairs, my little girl has fallen down and she's laying there, she's not breathing she did make this horrible... I don't even know if she's breathing.
(The LAS operator then explains how to resuscitate Ellie with cycles of two breaths into her mouth and 30 chest compressions.)


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-hours-beat-death-fit-rage.html#ixzz490z8GYi5
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

NB It has omitted the daughter's comments on trying to wake E up.

 

[cottonweaver]

BBC's report

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36323635

"A father charged with murdering his six-year-old daughter has been accused of concocting "a sophisticated charade" to cover it up...
The prosecutor said to Mr Butler that he was "blaming the 999 operator for delaying" but he had "sat on her death for two hours, because you killed her".
He added that Mr Butler knew that the emergency call was being recorded, to which the defendant replied "yeah"....
"I suggest the story that you and Jennie Gray had agreed upon was largely in place by now," Mr Brown said.
However, Mr Butler said the delay and his actions during the call were "more of a heat of the moment thing".
"What happened in 2007 was the reason I reacted like that," he said.....

The prosecutor Ed Brown said Mr Butler was "determined to deflect the case from the evidence".
He called the abusive text messages he had sent to Ms Gray, which have been read out to the jury, "vile", adding: "There's nothing I'm going to say that makes it acceptable. It's not acceptable. I'm sorry to Jennie and I let her down."
Mr Butler denied rowing in front of Ellie and insisted he was not on trial for abusing Ms Gray, to which the prosecutor reminded him he was caught on video shouting on the phone with Ellie standing at his side.
The defendant replied that it "spilled out every now and again" in front of their daughter.