GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Gigi-G]

He's a joke not a joker.
I think you're right , it's a sideshow, let's get off the catastrophic injuries and look at me I'm just a funny guy?
I would be nervous in the dock as the accused. He doesn't seem to be.

I checked out the bones are weaker after breaking and ID think it's true GIgi - They seem to be the same as before. I was interested as I fractured my arm once years ago and it has been aching recently. ( My mum told me a break can lead to arthritis in that arm though)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/19/health/19really.html?_r=0


Just on the skull injury, which he keeps trying to swerve off from :



It's the force of impacts, I think.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-for-justice-to-that-of-hillsborough-families


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36092752

We must have some CSI geeks on here - aren't there multiple tests for blood clean up on walls/floors etc?
I suppose the blunt weapon could be anything OTOH and as Tortoise said, it was disposed of successfully?

This would be relevant to his 2007 incident. And where he claimed Ventouse delivery was at fault. Here it mentions as I stated. There's worse prognosis with forceps delivery.

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[cottonweaver]

Right so we hear that Ellie's skull fracture was an immense blow. Yet no one can ascertain at HOW.
Blood was found throughout the home. JG's mingled with Ellie's. All recent too.
So no forensic expert has reported any findings of any blood of Ellie's dna traces on ANY places in the home.?
This is really bugging me. There's no weapon. That we know of.

Arghhh I'm off to go 3d a murder scene.. bbl

BIB This is the only part we got - Ellie's DNA in the home, ie. the significant blood with DNA .They must have found general Ellie DNA in that flat as she lived there.
"Ellie's pillow was found stained with her blood after she was allegedly battered to death by frustrated house husband Ben Butler, 36, at their Sutton home. Blood on a sofa cushion in the living room was also found to match her DNA profile"

He has now covered for the sofa cushion saying it is from the previous injury where she was concussed and vomited blood.

 

[Gigi-G]

He's a joke not a joker.
I think you're right , it's a sideshow, let's get off the catastrophic injuries and look at me I'm just a funny guy?
I would be nervous in the dock as the accused. He doesn't seem to be.

I checked out the bones are weaker after breaking and ID think it's true GIgi - They seem to be the same as before. I was interested as I fractured my arm once years ago and it has been aching recently. ( My mum told me a break can lead to arthritis in that arm though)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/19/health/19really.html?_r=0


Just on the skull injury, which he keeps trying to swerve off from :



It's the force of impacts, I think.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-for-justice-to-that-of-hillsborough-families


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36092752

We must have some CSI geeks on here - aren't there multiple tests for blood clean up on walls/floors etc?
I suppose the blunt weapon could be anything OTOH and as Tortoise said, it was disposed of successfully?

Here is a detailed view of the skull sutures I mentioned. .

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[Gigi-G]

Got the goings on of a migraine. Gonna go lie down in the dark for a bit. Dang thunderstorms.. ttfn x

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[Supernovae]

Is the cross examination continuing tomorrow?

 

[squish]

Got the goings on of a migraine. Gonna go lie down in the dark for a bit. Dang thunderstorms.. ttfn x

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Migraines can be due to a lack of magnesium. Could you try to nip this migraine in the bud with an Epsom Salts bath? The magnesium in it will soak into your skin. (Don't take them internally though, it causes diarrhoea!)

 

[cottonweaver]

only little bit that is "new" is in the BBC tonight

"I paid the ultimate price. Ellie paid the price. I blame myself every day."
At the Old Bailey, Mr Butler, from Sutton, south-west London, disagreed with the evidence a medical expert gave against him, saying he had said "whatever prosecutors had wanted him to say".
But Mr Butler said: "No-one wants to admit to anyone they may be at fault for why she died."
He added: "You just want a result because we turned you over in the last case."

No-one wants to admit to anyone they may be at fault for why she died!! The arrogance of this man knows no bounds.
Plus he has really got sucked into these parents against injustices blogs. There are loads of them across here, US, Aus etc. Maybe a few of them have legit axes to grind..... but he's certainly hitched a ride on that bandwagon.

For Brown QC I should think he is quite infuriating to deal with. The judge's soul must be sighing- he'll need a stiff drink every night.

 

[Tortoise]

When the autopsy was done. The specialist was most definate on "it came away as two pieces. The trauma was quite evident even to the naked eye." Now I've just spent the best part of e hours going thru autopsys and child blunt head trauma. Now an adult skull will take much more of a blow. Than a child obviously. But with a child's skull. The skull sutures have still not permanently bonded. Leaving it quite supple.. however. There are still parts of the skull that are still growing. And it's along those lines that 'car crash trauma' that take the stress. It's easier to show in pictures than in words. Let me see if I can find a non gory one to show my point.

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He really tried to dish dirt on the prosecution experts again today. Scoffed that Dr Nathaniel Cary is rolled out in all the trials and his 'car crash injuries' is a cut and paste job. He is on a mission but I think it is failing. Judge asked him if he knew about the law of diminishing returns and advised him to stop.

 

[Supernovae]

Tortoise, do you know the outline of what's planned for tomorrow?

 

[Tortoise]

Just continuation of cross I would think supernovae

 

[Tortoise]

If there are no marks on Ellie - why does he keep saying that when the pathologists found gripping marks on her? Can't he keep track?

Ok when he checked Ellie's body for incriminating marks soon after killing her, maybe they had not appeared yet but the path said



http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ix-year-old-injured-like-car-crash-court-told

Yes Brown pointed it out to him after one of his rants today about there being no marks on Ellie. Said there were 4 round grip like bruises under her chin and a bruise on her inner arm. Don't worry cotton, Brown is on it!

 

[Tortoise]

Sorry bit of a drip feed from me tonight, as and when. I'm in slow mode.

Brown did a very good job today of slowly letting it settle with the jury - just how it must have been to walk away from Ellie and leave her on the floor for 2 hours. Closing her door, getting on with their plan and their staging, all the while knowing she was there. Neither of them, him first, then her later, scooping her up to give her a comforting cuddle, not laying her on a comfortable bed, just putting her on the floor to stage a fall, and leaving her there.

BB said he couldn't do anything, he was in shock, Brown said he was also in shock when Ellie as he claimed had tripped down the stairs and he found her before scooping her up in his arms and taking her to the sofa. BB said that was different, it looked less serious, Brown said no it didn't - she was still, she couldn't hear him or see him, fell unconscious and then vomited. When BB later explained that Ellie's blood on the sofa cushion must have been from when she vomited, Brown said what? Ellie vomited blood? You knew how serious that was, and you still wouldn't get help from a doctor? BB - no I couldn't because of my fear of authorities, because of 2007.

Anyway, Brown also said that the scapula break and the skull fracture occurred at two different times according to the experts. BB said that was rubbish and they didn't know what they were talking about. Brown said Ellie was injured on 1st October and that is why she was absent from school for 14 days. BB said no, she had bruises when she went back to school which wouldn't have still been there. Brown said that occurred later than the broken scapula.

 

[Tortoise]

Another little bit of dirt on JG was served up by BB today.

JG was looking after the girls while he was out. When he came home the front door was open and they were sitting on the door step. Age 3 and 6. He said where's mummy? They said she's gone. He found out JG had gone and left them at home by themselves while she checked herself into a hospital.

BB said I didn't want to have to say these things because I accept everything here is my fault but you're asking me why I was angry with her, why I didn't want to be with her.

I don't think he gets the point, I really don't, no one cares why he was angry, it's what he did when he was fuming and angry that is relevant. And how he didn't want to look after the girls.

He passed off the assaults on his ex-girlfriend as being nothing but pushes. Brown said, she had to get hospital treatment for her facial injuries. BB said she did far worse to him, and no one should listen to her claims because she was a crackhead. He said she wasn't a girlfriend, he wasn't in a relationship with her (where have we heard that before). He didn't press counter charges against her because he didn't want to give her a criminal record as she wanted to be an air hostess. Brown said so you acted out of the kindness of your heart did you.

Several other fights he got into in 2013 (one where his head was swollen up and another where his hand had to be wrapped up in a towel with ice) which he never sought medical attention for, because? you got it, 2007.

 

[Tortoise]

only little bit that is "new" is in the BBC tonight



No-one wants to admit to anyone they may be at fault for why she died!! The arrogance of this man knows no bounds.
Plus he has really got sucked into these parents against injustices blogs. There are loads of them across here, US, Aus etc. Maybe a few of them have legit axes to grind..... but he's certainly hitched a ride on that bandwagon.

For Brown QC I should think he is quite infuriating to deal with. The judge's soul must be sighing- he'll need a stiff drink every night.

Brown QC doesn't get infuriated. He comes at BB with his questions like I would imagine a Chinese water torture. It goes, drip, fdghdfgfkff, drip, glkgjkhfdgfkfghj, drip....he keeps on going, in a calm, steady, very measured tone of voice.

The judge is a mediator. He steps in when BB is losing it and the rest of the court is losing the will to live and listen. And then along comes the next drip...

 

[Tortoise]

I thought BB was going to jump out of the witness box today and throttle Brown. They were talking about the staged 999 call and Brown suggested they had set up the little one to say she couldn't wake Ellie up. BB was going, are you really going to dare suggest that? Are you going to bring I**y into this? Are you? He was well riled up. Judge had to intervene to calm him down.

 

[Tortoise]

Just a bit on JG's blood trail in the house.

Ellie's bedroom floor, hallway, bathroom and edge of bath.
Also on the front of the washing machine, tiled wall behind the kitchen sink and corner of bathroom cabinet.
Expirated blood, or from an object soaked with her blood being carried.
Blood on the towel dumped in the bins.

He said there was no fight. It was quiet, other daughter was there so he wouldn't have done that, neighbours heard nothing. Old blood on the towel in the bins was from her abortion.

Brown said there was also blood staining on her light blue shirt in the washing machine that had not come out in the 40 degree wash.

BB denied there was any wet shirt in the washing machine, said the police found it in the house and planted it.

 

[Tortoise]

Diary found in the communal bins.

BB said it had been thrown away weeks earlier.

Brown said it was in one of the bags BB had thrown away on the day of Ellie's death. Communal bins emptied by council every Thursday. BB said they are not emptied weekly, Brown said they are, it has been confirmed and it is in the list of agreed facts that he has agreed. The torn up sections of diary pages were handed around. One entry said how bad the violence had got. Think it was dated from July, not positive on that.

Another text from JG said how she had spent the night in the park, gist of it (can't remember the words) was that she had been kicked out and was in a very bad way.

Brown also read out from the blue page prayer, stop anger, hatred and violence - year before they got the girls back. BB said she must have been referring to his violence to other people, not to her. His lies roll off one after the other. Brown keeps hammering home, it's all about Ben Butler...saving Ben Butler.

 

[Tortoise]

Last post from me tonight.

Judge told JG's counsel to speak to her and remind her that she must not pass information to BB in the dock while he is under oath. She had shown him a document when he returned to the dock for the lunch adjournment. Naughty girl.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I agree with you; I hope I didn't make it sound like I thought BB cared about poor Ellie. He certainly did intend to hurt and injure her, which is the entire purpose in beating someone.

I just don't think he intended to kill or severely injure her, not because he cared in any way, but because (as he has pretty much admitted) he was scared of getting himself into trouble.

I was speculating on his thought process, and how he may have no longer realised how lethal his brutal assaults were, due to Ellie previously surviving them.

I do believe that he was shocked that he'd killed her.

I understand and I agree, I don't think BB wanted Ellie to die. I get too emotional with these child murder cases so I usually stay away from them. I can handle the cold cases though a bit better. The never ending excuses are pathetic and predictable.

I think JG has had a nose job which sort of explains BB wanting Ellie's ears tied back. He wants perfection as he considers himself to be perfect. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Tortoise]

I have just come across this information on concussion

Anyone who has had a concussion should not return to sports or strenuous activities without a doctor’s permission. Getting a second concussion before the first concussion is healed can cause a condition known as second impact syndrome (SIS), which can increase the chances of severe brain swelling and may be fatal.

http://www.healthline.com/health/concussion#Warning:MultipleConcussions6