GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

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  • #481
Great Post Cottonweaver. I must say very very informative. I really think you've hit the nail on the head there.
There is something between the two of them. And I really am at a loss.
Mind you I've not long woken up. Still in bed ha!
The Grumpy one will bring me my tea and toast then I'm ready for my first round of meds...
I will be around shortly Cottonweaver. Will give me time to study those links you posted properly. As no Court today it's gonna be a quiet one...
Oh my my my.. I've just noticed. He's (BB) Due to take the stand tomorrow. And it's Friday the 13th :shock: :panic:
Dum Dum Dum (dramatic music) LOL!

Good Morning everyone! (:

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Morning GG!

Yes, there is court today but it's only likely to be very brief. Starts at c10:30 for the jury. Some question whether the witness evidence might not be admissible due to hearsay rules.

Then there is no court tomorrow (Thurs) while the defence get their papers in order.
 
  • #482
.

Anyway, prosecution is closing case tomorrow, possibly one more witness. No court Thursday and BB is going to take the stand on Friday. Assuming he has got over his faked sickness today.
snipped

I am bumping this back upthread because I had to check myself. Pros close their case today.

Do posters and browsers on here think they have done a good job so far on BB's charges at least? (Clearly we are not privy to all their evidence- I hope social services evidence is amongst the things we have not heard as well as JG 's own medical records which physically evidence her own abuse at his hands.)
 
  • #483
I can't see any issue with posting this that I looked at last night in trying to understand why JG is so ensnared with BB.
I looked at the typical sites which explain why women stay with abusers but the JG & BB situation seems such an extreme case.

Naturally I am mindful that it is silly to try and guess at what she is suffering from, that's a psych's job - but seeing as we are both restricted on what we can hear and say about the case, it might be worth pasting up. For a seemingly intelligent woman to put up with circa 10 years of this appalling abuse there must be something complex going on with JG. ( For me, it's better to see her as partly "mad" rather than just 100% "bad" /evil.)


Starting here -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive_love
"Although not categorized specifically under any specific mental diagnosis by the DSM IV, some people argue that obsessive love is considered to be a mental illness similar to attachment disorder, borderline personality disorder, and erotomania.... They may be entirely convinced that their feelings are love, and may reject the idea that their severe obsession is not love."

I looked at BPD - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

Naturally I don't know enough about her and BPD isn't a clear fit with the snippets we do know, but there is something self- harming about her attraction to him and her worst fear does seem to be abandonment. Equally though she may never have suffered from depression at all prior to meeting him but i still think he has triggered a weakness in her that was already there.....
The hypocrite clearly has a low opinion of her mental health, from what he writes in his foul texts, but he still exploits her vulnerability anyway.


Prosecution have themselves said this regard for him is not rational. JG does not seem to easily fit this BPD but there are shades of this, just based on what we have heard AND `there are a bewildering range of BPD sub types and overlaps. Some psychs believe lying is a feature of BPD and that BPD largely affects women. Naturally to have any of these disorders JG would have to have shown signs in adolescence which is something we cannot know about.

Bizarre but it says the United States House of Representatives declared the month of May as Borderline Personality Disorder Awareness Month!

Interesting thoughts cotton.

BPD doesn't quite fit my own ideas about her.

I found something called Stockholm Syndrome which seems to be a better partial fit. A lot of it is very relevant - this article is really informative - http://counsellingresource.com/therapy/self-help/stockholm/

Parts about 'victim' breaking contact with family - turning against children, etc.

I'm still reading it so haven't reached the end yet, but the only additional point I haven't come across yet within that behaviour is her lying. There are just so many lies - massive ones - I'll get to that in another post.
 
  • #484
snipped

I am bumping this back upthread because I had to check myself. Pros close their case today.

Do posters and browsers on here think they have done a good job so far on BB's charges at least? (Clearly we are not privy to all their evidence- I hope social services evidence is amongst the things we have not heard as well as JG 's own medical records which physically evidence her own abuse at his hands.)

BIB I'm still reading the article I've just linked above this post so I'm in two places at once, but I'll come back to you on this cottonw.
 
  • #485
Just from the little bit I saw in court, I think the two witnesses provided lots of good evidence on the shoulder injury
 
  • #486
Morning GG!

Yes, there is court today but it's only likely to be very brief. Starts at c10:30 for the jury. Some question whether the witness evidence might not be admissible due to hearsay rules.

Then there is no court tomorrow (Thurs) while the defence get their papers in order.
Ahhhh thank you for correcting me Tortoise. Ooh so I wonder what we shall hear today then. (:

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  • #487
snipped

I am bumping this back upthread because I had to check myself. Pros close their case today.

Do posters and browsers on here think they have done a good job so far on BB's charges at least? (Clearly we are not privy to all their evidence- I hope social services evidence is amongst the things we have not heard as well as JG 's own medical records which physically evidence her own abuse at his hands.)
Thank you also Cottonweaver (:

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  • #488
Interesting thoughts cotton.

BPD doesn't quite fit my own ideas about her.

I found something called Stockholm Syndrome which seems to be a better partial fit. A lot of it is very relevant - this article is really informative - http://counsellingresource.com/therapy/self-help/stockholm/

Parts about 'victim' breaking contact with family - turning against children, etc.

I'm still reading it so haven't reached the end yet, but the only additional point I haven't come across yet within that behaviour is her lying. There are just so many lies - massive ones - I'll get to that in another post.
Interesting Tortoise. I'd love her to have a report done on her (JG). By a psychiatrist. Just to get her unravelled a bit. Becuz I think she's probably a mix of a few personality disorders. Either way it'd make for interesting reading.

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  • #489
BIB I'm still reading the article I've just linked above this post so I'm in two places at once, but I'll come back to you on this cottonw.
I think in all honesty. On him (BB)
They have just scratched the surface. Altho as you stated we are not privy to a lot of info. Altho the Jury will be fully versed on him and the Crime in hand.
I believe that they have touched on his violent personality. As it seems to have stemmed back pre JG.
Altho he (BB) states "he doesn't want her as a lover or in a relationship. As friends things are okay"
My guessing is then. They began as 'friends' and maybe it went too far one night and she (JG) may of read too much into it... slam bang 6 years later we end up here. In such a sad sad state of affairs..

All moo of course.

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  • #490
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  • #493
Re BB this one's quite good

How psychos and sociopaths differ

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201401/how-tell-sociopath-psychopath

Agreed his violence has been developing over many years form what we have read and her particular issues will have existed long before their ill-fated match.

Think it was squish who commented wtte - wonder what JG's ex husband thinks of all this. Indeed!
I wonder about the parents. On both sides. They must be mortified.

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  • #494
Ooh Quick Lunch.. bbs (:

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  • #495
snipped

I am bumping this back upthread because I had to check myself. Pros close their case today.

Do posters and browsers on here think they have done a good job so far on BB's charges at least? (Clearly we are not privy to all their evidence- I hope social services evidence is amongst the things we have not heard as well as JG 's own medical records which physically evidence her own abuse at his hands.)

Yes, I think they have laid out the case against him very well. I am convinced he killed his daughter just on the basis of the information that has been made public thus far.

Now we learn he is going to testify which will be a grim treat for trial watchers present [the treat will be in watching him destroy whatever shreds of doubt the jurors may still have].
 
  • #496
Just to add, thanks to everyone who has taken the time to go and watch this trial and report back. I know it must be a harrowing experience for you but I really appreciate reading the first hand accounts.
 
  • #497
  • #498
Yes, I think they have laid out the case against him very well. I am convinced he killed his daughter just on the basis of the information that has been made public thus far.

Now we learn he is going to testify which will be a grim treat for trial watchers present [the treat will be in watching him destroy whatever shreds of doubt the jurors may still have].
I really don't think he has the patience to take the stand. I think he'll lose it. But I think it will be interesting nonetheless. But I really can't see the case getting very far. He'd be better off doing it by video link. So if he kicks off the link can be shut down.

We'll see.

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  • #499
I really don't think he has the patience to take the stand. I think he'll lose it. But I think it will be interesting nonetheless. But I really can't see the case getting very far. He'd be better off doing it by video link. So if he kicks off the link can be shut down.

We'll see.

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This will be interesting. He is one defendant who really should not take the stand.
 
  • #500
This will be interesting. He is one defendant who really should not take the stand.
I defo agree with you. I'm sure he would of had a psych report initially. Maybe they may do his taking the stand as I said via video link. I think it would be safer for all involved.

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