GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[flutterby]

Wish I could go down on Friday but big uni deadline (thesis!) on Saturday.

 

[Tortoise]

snipped


Do posters and browsers on here think they have done a good job so far on BB's charges at least? (Clearly we are not privy to all their evidence- I hope social services evidence is amongst the things we have not heard as well as JG 's own medical records which physically evidence her own abuse at his hands.)

The evidence is so strong, in so many ways. He will get a whole life term. He is a complete ****, moron, beast, hateful being. Am I allowed to say that? Perhaps I should add IMO. The prosecution have not been particularly aggressive, but haven't seen them in action yet with cross-examination. They are very dignified, not particularly loud or swaggering. They don't need to be, the evidence speaks loud enough.

She will also be found guilty IMO. She is living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

[Tortoise]

Ooh, it blocked one of my words , I didn't think it was that bad actually.

 

[flutterby]

This is from last year, but another little girl murdered by her dad http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2016...d-girl-let-down-by-courts-and-social-workers/

 

[Gigi-G]

The evidence is so strong, in so many ways. He will get a whole life term. He is a complete ****, moron, beast, hateful being. Am I allowed to say that? Perhaps I should add IMO. The prosecution have not been particularly aggressive, but haven't seen them in action yet with cross-examination. They are very dignified, not particularly loud or swaggering. They don't need to be, the evidence speaks loud enough.

She will also be found guilty IMO. She is living in cloud cuckoo land.

I'm hoping to see a bit of action from the prosecution. Maybe they are just biding their time seeing what does Twick his temper up.
They are already fully aware of his capabilities. And in order to get the case heard. They may even just treat him with kid gloves.
Either way. It's going to prove interesting. As even though he's the charged 'murderer' the second charge is brought between the 2 of Child neglect/abuse.
Interesting interesting interesting.... roll on Friday. Altho something tells me we won't get thru an awful lot Friday. He'll be interrupting no doubt.

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[Gigi-G]

Ooh, it blocked one of my words , I didn't think it was that bad actually.

Hehehe Tortoise. We got the drift anyways... his is all of the above and a lot lot more

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[Gigi-G]

The evidence is so strong, in so many ways. He will get a whole life term. He is a complete ****, moron, beast, hateful being. Am I allowed to say that? Perhaps I should add IMO. The prosecution have not been particularly aggressive, but haven't seen them in action yet with cross-examination. They are very dignified, not particularly loud or swaggering. They don't need to be, the evidence speaks loud enough.

She will also be found guilty IMO. She is living in cloud cuckoo land.

She's a sandwich short of a picnic! Lol

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[Gigi-G]

This is from last year, but another little girl murdered by her dad http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2016...d-girl-let-down-by-courts-and-social-workers/

Great find flutterby

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[Lola68]

I'm finding this case really hard to follow, especially as MMM keep showing the picture of Ellie standing motionless with a bruised face and eyes closed whilst her dad shouts down the phone - she looks resigned to the inevitable (that his anger will soon be directed at her).

I think the prosecution has been deliberately restrained - it's a very emotive subject, especially as he was cleared of abusing her as a baby, and an aggressive approach could backfire ("victimising" the father). IMO they are saving themselves - as others have said, the evidence speaks for itself, and he is so volatile that I'm certain he will condemn himself when he takes the stand.

As for the mother - she has admitted concealing evidence and perverting the course of justice, but denied child harm/neglect. I don't believe she has any part to play in Ellie's abuse and subsequent death other than helping him cover it up. The fact that she is still supporting him despite everything indicates how vulnerable she is. She needs intensive psychological support and bereavement counselling IMO, not prison.

 

[Lola68]

Great find flutterby

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I remember this case - very sad

 

[dalsglen]

As for the mother - she has admitted concealing evidence and perverting the course of justice, but denied child harm/neglect. I don't believe she has any part to play in Ellie's abuse and subsequent death other than helping him cover it up. The fact that she is still supporting him despite everything indicates how vulnerable she is. She needs intensive psychological support and bereavement counselling IMO, not prison.

Snipped for ease, I believe the mother deserves just as harsh a sentence. Imo turning a blind eye is abuse in its own right. Id sooner kill my husband than allow him to hurt our kids. Trying to bold the part of your quote re her supporting him but my kindle doesn't wanna work... maybe she's just a heartless bi#ch?!

 

[cottonweaver]

As for the mother - she has admitted concealing evidence and perverting the course of justice, but denied child harm/neglect. I don't believe she has any part to play in Ellie's abuse and subsequent death other than helping him cover it up. The fact that she is still supporting him despite everything indicates how vulnerable she is. She needs intensive psychological support and bereavement counselling IMO, not prison.

RSBM ( snipped)

Whilst I don't agree with you Lola, it's really heartening to see some new points of view on here. I mean that genuinely BTW.
What about the shoulder injury though, putting aside for now, the other old injuries the experts found.
I referenced Stockholm Syndrome back in one of my first posts, I'm not so sure though.
I do think she is mentally ill though. As he also may be.

 

[Electric Sheep]

RSBM ( snipped)

Whilst I don't agree with you Lola, it's really heartening to see some new points of view on here. I mean that genuinely BTW.
What about the shoulder injury though, putting aside for now, the other old injuries the experts found.
I referenced Stockholm Syndrome back in one of my first posts, I'm not so sure though.
I do think she is mentally ill though. As he also may be.

He reminds me of Begbie in Trainspotting, who also shows up in other of Irvine Welsh's writings. A violent man who loves violence for its own sake. He really needs to be kept off the streets for the rest of his life.

 

[cottonweaver]

He reminds me of Begbie in Trainspotting, who also shows up in other of Irvine Welsh's writings. A violent man who loves violence for its own sake. He really needs to be kept off the streets for the rest of his life.

Yeah or Clockwork Orange.
Is he "mad" & therefore bad? Or is he actually an in control bully who only lashes out at the right target, the right kind of bloke, if you follow? ( Putting aside child murder and battering women , for a moment.)

Why does he get away with multiple convictions for assault over 2-3 years and yet we haven't heard of an intervening custodial sentence 2004-2007?

 

[Gigi-G]

I'm finding this case really hard to follow, especially as MMM keep showing the picture of Ellie standing motionless with a bruised face and eyes closed whilst her dad shouts down the phone - she looks resigned to the inevitable (that his anger will soon be directed at her).

I think the prosecution has been deliberately restrained - it's a very emotive subject, especially as he was cleared of abusing her as a baby, and an aggressive approach could backfire ("victimising" the father). IMO they are saving themselves - as others have said, the evidence speaks for itself, and he is so volatile that I'm certain he will condemn himself when he takes the stand.

As for the mother - she has admitted concealing evidence and perverting the course of justice, but denied child harm/neglect. I don't believe she has any part to play in Ellie's abuse and subsequent death other than helping him cover it up. The fact that she is still supporting him despite everything indicates how vulnerable she is. She needs intensive psychological support and bereavement counselling IMO, not prison.

The child neglect/harm that they are trying to charge JG with. Is over the fractured scapula. As professionals have stated poor Ellie would of been in absolute agony for at least 10 days after the injury was sustained. Why did mother refrain from seeking medical intervention. When her child was sure to be in acute distress. But failed to act. That is wilful neglect.
Regardless if she pumped Ellie full of capol fenergan and nurofen. The injury was left untreated. And for Ellie to even move would of caused her immense pain.

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[Gigi-G]

Snipped for ease, I believe the mother deserves just as harsh a sentence. Imo turning a blind eye is abuse in its own right. Id sooner kill my husband than allow him to hurt our kids. Trying to bold the part of your quote re her supporting him but my kindle doesn't wanna work... maybe she's just a heartless bi#ch?!

I'm sorry but I don't agree here. For years JG has sat back while BB has used Ellie as an outlet for his temper. You cannot tell me she DIDN'T know. She knew and she didn't actually. She let it go on becuz it was her perfect lil family unit. However sick and twisted it might seem to us outsiders. As a mom your there to PROTECT your children. Not turn a blind eye to yr partner hurling dreadful abuse at her while throwing her into a wall. Or cracking a back hander across her head. THAT isn't a mothers' love. That is a pitiful mistake for a mothers' love.
NO child deserves that pain. That torture. That life!

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[Tortoise]

Gigi I don't think you're disagreeing, dalsglen thinks the same as you...have you linked the wrong post?

 

[Gigi-G]

RSBM ( snipped)

Whilst I don't agree with you Lola, it's really heartening to see some new points of view on here. I mean that genuinely BTW.
What about the shoulder injury though, putting aside for now, the other old injuries the experts found.
I referenced Stockholm Syndrome back in one of my first posts, I'm not so sure though.
I do think she is mentally ill though. As he also may be.

Totally agree with you Cottonweaver. They both have Mental Health issues. I don't think she'd (JG) would cope without some intense therapy. In fact both of their Mental Health situations need re wiring. Plenty of cognitive behavioural therapy. To maybe become well adjusted people in their own right at another point in their lives.

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[Lola68]

The shoulder injury troubles me further. MMM cites specialists saying it would have been v painful - "It would have been really painful, at the time and for a period after its infliction" (The Guardian). But in which case, why did no one outside of the immediate family (grandparents, friends, teachers etc) recognise or do anything?

 

[Tortoise]

The shoulder injury troubles me further. MMM cites specialists saying it would have been v painful - "It would have been really painful, at the time and for a period after its infliction" (The Guardian). But in which case, why did no one outside of the immediate family (grandparents, friends, teachers etc) recognise or do anything?

She was kept off school during that time and I doubt the parents would have let her see grandparents or friends, with those injuries. She also had skull trauma and fracture from same period.