GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[cottonweaver]

next q

Jury question 3 is about changing clothes due to Jennie Gray's medical problems and a fourth question is about her post-natal depression

IS it just the tweets or is JG keeping her answers very short after legal advice to not rub up the jury and definitely not call them "vile" as she did the pros QC?

am assuming by Q3 they mean on the 28th when she loaded the washer ( her blood stained shirt collar?)

 

[cottonweaver]

Among "agreed facts" read to jury: in 2007 in hospital for head scan Ellie #Butler received radiation dose 3 times greater than normal .

he hasn't tweet the answers to 3 & 4 yet.

Ellie #Butler's radiation overdose led to "major incident". Experts said no immediate health risk but risk of cancer in later life

as you would expect

 

[ColourPurple]

Ok, I've just finished reading both threads. Up till then I'd only read the odd newspaer report on the case and the only thing I'd thought was that BB seemed quite a character, making jokey references to the court, saying things that you might think but never actually say out loud in a court of law. Well now having read both threads i think what an absolutely vile pair they are. The phrase "They'd ruin another couple" springs to mind. Poor poor Ellie being handed back to parents like that. The grandparents who were bringing her up before must be absolutely devastated.

I agree with those who say it's interesting that she hasn't gone for the battered wife defence.I can only assume that either she's confident that he'll be found not guilty... or I suppose scared that he'll be found not guilty (as then he'd probably target her for testifying against him) OR that he has too much on her for her to risk testifying against him. Was it just me that thought that his description of the 2007 event seemed to plant the idea that it may even have been JG that harmed Ellie then. In his version it happened not long after she'd dropped Ellie off at his and Ellie was already very pale when she dropped her off. The only thing that makes me think JG wasn't the one to harm her is that if she was and BB knew I think he'd have thrown her straight under the bus. So maybe it's something else BB has over JG. The text where she mentions how she'd put him first the previous week? The one that could tie in with Ellie's unreported shoulder injury?

As for the "happy family" video clips. I can see why his defence would play them as it presents a different side to BB than that of the loud mouthed violent bully BUT... just because he was nice to her (on camera) sometimes doesn't mean that he couldn't have lost his temper and harmed her at other times. Nobody is one dimensional and abusers very often a have nice, even charming side too. I hope the prosecution stress that in their summing up. I bet there were times (probably at the beginning of the relationship) where he was nice to the ex girlfriend that he beat up; it doesn't mean he wasn't capable of beating her up at other times.

And big thank you to Tortoise for the court updates!

 

[cottonweaver]

Ben #Butler trial breaks for half-term - back on June 7 with final defence expert witness.

presumably that will be Dr Janice O.

 

[bluefoxglove]

I wonder if any attempt has been made to encourage/obtain counselling for JG. Don't get me wrong -- I have ZERO sympathy for her. She is a wretched human being. But perhaps with decent counselling and guidance she might have at least done the right thing in terms of her testimony? It's unfathomable to think how she is still so steadfastly supporting BB. She must be a mess, psychologically speaking.

 

[Gigi-G]

I'm sure once the case is over she will be seeing specialists for tests. For one thing she won't be on a main wing if she even goes in to prison. My thoughts is she might go straight into a Psychiatric Unit.

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[theirmommy]

OT...I'm still behind, trying to catch up, on post #387. Hi again everyone. As I said before, I'm in the States and I'm trying my best to understand the lingo...and most of it I am doing ok with....
I'm trying to envision your court system. There have been references to him in the "dock" and it has bulletproof glass. Is that where the defendants are at all times? Almost like a glass cage in the middle of the room? And someone said that he left for a bit.... Can they come and go as they please? Or did he just ask for a break?
Also, reference to they live on an estate...over here that would make me envision grandeur or at least a large home on a lot of land, but from the pictures it's what looks like apartments or row homes. Is an estate over there an apartment complex?
Might even call it a subdivision over here maybe??
And I often read fellow posters say I'm off to have a "cuppa". Is that a cup of tea?
Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Gigi-G]

Ok, I've just finished reading both threads. Up till then I'd only read the odd newspaer report on the case and the only thing I'd thought was that BB seemed quite a character, making jokey references to the court, saying things that you might think but never actually say out loud in a court of law. Well now having read both threads i think what an absolutely vile pair they are. The phrase "They'd ruin another couple" springs to mind. Poor poor Ellie being handed back to parents like that. The grandparents who were bringing her up before must be absolutely devastated.

I agree with those who say it's interesting that she hasn't gone for the battered wife defence.I can only assume that either she's confident that he'll be found not guilty... or I suppose scared that he'll be found not guilty (as then he'd probably target her for testifying against him) OR that he has too much on her for her to risk testifying against him. Was it just me that thought that his description of the 2007 event seemed to plant the idea that it may even have been JG that harmed Ellie then. In his version it happened not long after she'd dropped Ellie off at his and Ellie was already very pale when she dropped her off. The only thing that makes me think JG wasn't the one to harm her is that if she was and BB knew I think he'd have thrown her straight under the bus. So maybe it's something else BB has over JG. The text where she mentions how she'd put him first the previous week? The one that could tie in with Ellie's unreported shoulder injury?

As for the "happy family" video clips. I can see why his defence would play them as it presents a different side to BB than that of the loud mouthed violent bully BUT... just because he was nice to her (on camera) sometimes doesn't mean that he couldn't have lost his temper and harmed her at other times. Nobody is one dimensional and abusers very often a have nice, even charming side too. I hope the prosecution stress that in their summing up. I bet there were times (probably at the beginning of the relationship) where he was nice to the ex girlfriend that he beat up; it doesn't mean he wasn't capable of beating her up at other times.

And big thank you to Tortoise for the court updates!

They both have psychopathic traits. His tends to be boosted with a spurious violent rage. Altho she can be aggressive also. It fits BB profile to be the one to lash out. Many men would stop themselves. When an argument with a woman escalated. BB didn't.
We didn't see/hear of any violent fighting concerning JG. But I'm sure the toxicity of these 2 together. Probably could end in physical fighting.
And we've seen the venomous texts he'd sent her. What if Ellie did rub him up the wrong way for whatever reason. We know how antagonising some children can be when the want something. Can I can I can I can I.
Could be something as simple as that which could send BB into a blind fury. Lash out not thinking. Not looking. Not realising his own strength.

But the answer to What happened with Ellie? We'll never know. Unless one testify the truth.

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[Gigi-G]

OT...I'm still behind, trying to catch up, on post #387. Hi again everyone. As I said before, I'm in the States and I'm trying my best to understand the lingo...and most of it I am doing ok with....
I'm trying to envision your court system. There have been references to him in the "dock" and it has bulletproof glass. Is that where the defendants are at all times? Almost like a glass cage in the middle of the room? And someone said that he left for a bit.... Can they come and go as they please? Or did he just ask for a break?
Also, reference to they live on an estate...over here that would make me envision grandeur or at least a large home on a lot of land, but from the pictures it's what looks like apartments or row homes. Is an estate over there an apartment complex?
Might even call it a subdivision over here maybe??
And I often read fellow posters say I'm off to have a "cuppa". Is that a cup of tea?
Thanks in advance for your help.

Hi Theirmommy. A dock yes is like a bulletproof glass cage. They can only leave if necessary and usually accompanied by their security guard.
An Estate here. Is like a 'block' where many houses are in one area.

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[Gigi-G]

Hi Theirmommy. A dock yes is like a bulletproof glass cage. They can only leave if necessary and usually accompanied by their security guard.
An Estate here. Is like a 'block' where many houses are in one area.

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Yup a cuppa is a cup of tea or coffee. Good old English slang lol

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[cottonweaver]

I wonder if any attempt has been made to encourage/obtain counselling for JG. Don't get me wrong -- I have ZERO sympathy for her. She is a wretched human being. But perhaps with decent counselling and guidance she might have at least done the right thing in terms of her testimony? It's unfathomable to think how she is still so steadfastly supporting BB. She must be a mess, psychologically speaking.

I think she will have been offered it many times and refused it since 2007 foxglove.

Children & Family social workers have been involved with her & family since that date and even JG stated herself ( in 2012) that if she had admitted to BB's violence and risk around her child she would not have lost both her kids. (Normally in a DV case with an unsafe father, the woman risks losing her kids unless she ends the relationship ....JG wasn't willing to do that. )
Combined with her denial of BB child abuse would have been her denial of his DV on her. ( She has been admitting herself to hosp with her DV injuries, under false names for a long time.)

Even after the 2013 incident you have to imagine that even a female "good cop" would have suggested/offered her DV counselling as therapy would have enabled her to confess to what had happened and then begin to see the whole family as his victims.
As part of the trial now her lawyers may have suggested/will perhaps suggest she gets a psych. session, to enable them to argue a lower sentence in her mitigation, if she is charged.
I think it's/she's a complex case and our usual u'standing of DV maybe doesn't apply in every case, because maybe of her pre-existing MHealth conditions prior to even meeting him?

 

[theirmommy]

I'm finally caught up! Right on time for a break til June 7. I'm lucky I came late to this party. I haven't had to wait like most of you. Thank you Tortoise for going to the courts so often and your insight. It really brings another side of BB & JG to life that we might not have known just reading the news.

Will we get the answers to questions 3 & 4?

 

[theirmommy]

Thank you Gigi!

 

[theirmommy]

A of now, JG is charged with p of j. Can the courts add on charges now if they see fit, as in child abuse or failure to report child abuse? Or accessory after the fact, for helping BB clean and and dispose of evidence?

Or is that a separate trial in the future if evidence warrants it?

 

[cottonweaver]

Theirmommy

here's an example of the glass.
The court artist has compressed the scene to tell the story, they're not actually that close to each other.

I didn't know that juries are more likely to convict if the defs are sat behind the glass panels.

the woman in this pic was also convicted of perverting......justice

 

[Gigi-G]

Can't post DMS :0

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[Gigi-G]

Theirmommy

here's an example of the glass.
The court artist has compressed the scene to tell the story, they're not actually that close to each other.

I didn't know that juries are more likely to convict if the defs are sat behind the glass panels.

the woman in this pic was also convicted of perverting......justice

I think it depends on the case and the Accused. The Court itself, And If they're likely to be violent I think they're kept in the dock. But you generally take 'The Stand' which is just like you have over in the USA. A wooden stand with a mic. And bible. Or other Religious artifact to swear on oath.

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[Gigi-G]

@Cottonweaver for some reason I can't send DM. So I'll post it here. Apologies to anyone in advance.
ISIS recruiter Sally Jones tweets, 'You are pathetic England' http://dailym.ai/249t32c via http://dailym.ai/android

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[Tortoise]

A of now, JG is charged with p of j. Can the courts add on charges now if they see fit, as in child abuse or failure to report child abuse? Or accessory after the fact, for helping BB clean and and dispose of evidence?

Or is that a separate trial in the future if evidence warrants it?

She has been charged with child cruelty.

 

[Tortoise]

I didn't know that juries are more likely to convict if the defs are sat behind the glass panels.

RSBM

as opposed to being sat where cotton?