GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #2

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  • #641
Just thinking over the evidence from HB's mother in court this week. A lot has been made of HB's episodes of tiredness and the spell on the beach, etc. Her mother claimed that one falling asleep occurrence was while IS was in hospital. How would others here account for that if it was him administering the sleeping med?

I had a chat with my mum earlier about the menopause. She said that while she never had one hot flush the entire time, she did feel extremely tired. She said she'd often have to drag herself out of bed in the morning, and would be so tired again by mid afternoon, she'd have to have a nap; or she'd be watching Emmerdale and would just nod off on the sofa for a few hours. (We have ruled my dad out of any culpability, I will add, ha!) She also had memory problems where she'd thinking of someone she knew well, yet suddenly find she couldn't remember their name. That part she said, she did get a bit panicky over. She also, like HB, looked online about tiredness and falling asleep as she thought she may be low in iron or vitamin b or d.

So what I am saying is *could**these episodes HB experienced have been just part of the usual menopause? Perhaps, as she was a worrier and the type of high strung creative, the symptoms intensified in her mind. I am not saying she wasn't still administered the zopiclone, but whether the idea of these was not so much to kill as to make her question her state of mind and sanity.

Did she ever see her GP about it? Would like to hear testimony from her GP. *I gather HB was not on any medication? Not taking HRT or any blood pressure drug, as presumably these would have shown up. Do I recall that she was taking some kind of herbal supplement though? Do we know what or where from (ie a local Holland & Barrett or similar, or from a private herbalist)?

My other thought - in relation to it being surmised on here that she was being slipped the zopiclone in her food or drink - was what if the drug had been self-administered...unknowingly?

Presumably these herbal supplements (again, am pondering whether these might have been Chinese herbal preparations, which can have strong adverse effects) and the paracetamol were kept in a medicine cabinet in the bathroom (or ensuite if they had such) or maybe in a kitchen cupboard. I don't know what zopiclone looks like, or indeed what these supplements might look like, but if the latter were in a jar or tub, how easy would it be - for someone else in the house - to simply remove some and slip in the zopiclone among them.*If they looked a similar colour/size/shape, they might not be spotted. Anyone taking the supplement would not think twice to closely examine them before taking either: just reach for the jar, shake a couple out and swallow down with water. We know HB was having trouble with her eyes*(as most of us coming into 50s even with prior perfect eyesight, will start to experience trouble reading very small print - the kind on bottle or package labelling, for example), and so may also not have been as observant as a younger person with 20/20 vision.

I think some tiredness could have been attributed to the menopause but having a full nights sleep, eating breakfast then waking up 5 hours later sounds more like it was due to him drugging her.

IS mentioned Helen buying vitamins or herbal supplements on line and Helen's brother mentioned the labelled bags of vitamins she had. We haven't heard whether police tested any of them. If any of her supplements were capsules then all IS had to do was open the capsules and add either crush the zopicolne and add the crushed powder if they were zopiclone tablets or even easier if they were zopiclone capsules. Just empty the capsule contents into the herbal capsules. She'd then self administer without knowing. She also drank powdered tea so he could have mixed zoplicone powder into the powdered tea and then she'd self administer every time she had a cup of tea.
 
  • #642
Just thinking over the evidence from HB's mother in court this week. A lot has been made of HB's episodes of tiredness and the spell on the beach, etc. Her mother claimed that one falling asleep occurrence was while IS was in hospital. How would others here account for that if it was him administering the sleeping med?

I had a chat with my mum earlier about the menopause. She said that while she never had one hot flush the entire time, she did feel extremely tired. She said she'd often have to drag herself out of bed in the morning, and would be so tired again by mid afternoon, she'd have to have a nap; or she'd be watching Emmerdale and would just nod off on the sofa for a few hours. (We have ruled my dad out of any culpability, I will add, ha!) She also had memory problems where she'd thinking of someone she knew well, yet suddenly find she couldn't remember their name. That part she said, she did get a bit panicky over. She also, like HB, looked online about tiredness and falling asleep as she thought she may be low in iron or vitamin b or d.

So what I am saying is *could**these episodes HB experienced have been just part of the usual menopause? Perhaps, as she was a worrier and the type of high strung creative, the symptoms intensified in her mind. I am not saying she wasn't still administered the zopiclone, but whether the idea of these was not so much to kill as to make her question her state of mind and sanity.

This is a good point. The sleepiness could very well have begun as an effect of the menopause. I wonder if IS noticed and was inspired to take advantage of it by feeding Helen those pills to keep it going.
 
  • #643
Did she ever see her GP about it? Would like to hear testimony from her GP. *I gather HB was not on any medication? Not taking HRT or any blood pressure drug, as presumably these would have shown up. Do I recall that she was taking some kind of herbal supplement though? Do we know what or where from (ie a local Holland & Barrett or similar, or from a private herbalist)?

My other thought - in relation to it being surmised on here that she was being slipped the zopiclone in her food or drink - was what if the drug had been self-administered...unknowingly?

I don't know what zopiclone looks like, or indeed what these supplements might look like, but if the latter were in a jar or tub, how easy would it be - for someone else in the house - to simply remove some and slip in the zopiclone among them.*If they looked a similar colour/size/shape, they might not be spotted. Anyone taking the supplement would not think twice to closely examine them before taking either: just reach for the jar, shake a couple out and swallow down with water. We know HB was having trouble with her eyes*(as most of us coming into 50s even with prior perfect eyesight, will start to experience trouble reading very small print - the kind on bottle or package labelling, for example), and so may also not have been as observant as a younger person with 20/20 vision.

RSBM

Zoplicone comes in striking blue and white tablets, but it is also available online in China, in the form of a white powder.

I was surprised about what HB's mother told about HB having high blood pressure.
She should have taken medication for that, but it remained unclear if she did and if she went to see a doctor for regular check-ups.
 
  • #644
@ColourPurple

Of course! That's it, isn't it. Nailed.

"IS mentioned Helen buying vitamins or herbal supplements on line and Helen's brother mentioned the labelled bags of vitamins she had. We haven't heard whether police tested any of them. If any of her supplements were capsules then all IS had to do was open the capsules and add either crush the zopicolne and add the crushed powder if they were zopiclone tablets or even easier if they were zopiclone capsules. Just empty the capsule contents into the herbal capsules. She'd then self administer without knowing. She also drank powdered tea so he could have mixed zoplicone powder into the powdered tea and then she'd self administer every time she had a cup of tea."
 
  • #645
RSBM

Zoplicone comes in striking blue and white tablets, but it is also available online in China, in the form of a white powder.

I was surprised about what HB's mother told about HB having high blood pressure.
She should have taken medication for that, but it remained unclear if she did and if she went to see a doctor for regular check-ups.

Exactly my thoughts about the blood pressure. Her mum does state this was 2012 but I didn't think blood pressure could disappear on its own. Doesn't it have to be controlled/managed. I would like to know if she was on medication for it.


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  • #646
I'm signing off for the night, and just want to echo the positive comments others have made about this amazing website and the people who make it such an informative, insightful and enjoyable experience. It's fabulous and I must say, pretty unique on the internet!

I'm sitting in bed typing this, while my tiny maltese terrier Dolly lies flat on her back beside me, snoring like a tractor (that's her in the profile pic, wearing a cunning disguise - no, she's not in the Witness Protection Programme!)

As I browse the comments here with Dolly by my side, my thoughts return time and again to little Boris and I find myself reaching across and patting her tummy. The thought of anyone hurting her fills me with rage and I know Helen must have felt exactly the same about the little dog she loved so much. I pray she never knew his fate.

As a devoted dog owner, my observations on the subject of Boris are these: One of IS' son's claimed in evidence his father often took the dashchund for walks and was fond of him. I'm sorry, but I feel absolutely certain that simply isn't possible. Feigning interest in and affection for Boris was just a necessary action for IS to secure Helen - as killing him to secure her money would one day be. A more accurate summary I'm sure came from one of Helen's friends, who said Helen adored Boris but (I paraphrase) "I got the impression Ian was not much of a pet person".

I am a middle aged, single woman on the internet dating scene and I take a great deal of notice of whether a gentleman caller is genuinely keen on Dolly, or just putting on an act to please me. A true animal lover like myself can spot a fake animal lover a mile off, and I suspect Helen eventually came to realise IS was not genuinely fond of Boris. It was no doubt one of his many flaws she generously decided to overlook.

More to the point, I feel absolutely certain Boris was not fond of IS. In my experience dogs are incredibly good judges of character. If Dolly unaccountably takes against a friend or acquaintance of mine, which she occasionally does, I always take notice. Her judgement has never been wrong and I have invariably parted company, for one reason or another, with the people she refused to buddy up with!

I am not suggesting for a moment Helen could have done anything to save herself and Boris - she could not possibly have known what this apparently conventional, respectable man was capable of. But I think the way a person relates to your pets and vice versa, can reveal a lot about them and its something to be aware of.

So I will say goodnight to you, my new Web Sleuth friends, and just add this thought: Justice is in sight for the killer of Helen and Boris and a bleak retirement behind bars beckons. I personally am looking forward to seeing the police bodycam footage of his arrest, at 7.02am on 11th of July, staggering to the front door, bleary eyed in his dressing gown, protesting: "Bloody hell, why?" Our sentiments exactly Ian - Bloody hell - Why?
 
  • #647
Goodnight DollyDiamond and thanks for your great posts and for the cheeky chuckle I had much earlier tonight at your description of this man behind bars. I know, I know, I shouldn't laugh. But I did ;) goodnight all


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  • #648
Sadly, from Helen's mum's evidence it seems to me the high blood pressure was the reason she was reluctant to go to the doctor! It should have been cause for her to visit her GP regularly but ironically it seems it had the opposite effect. This of course played straight into IS' hands. If only Helen had seen her GP about her mysterious drowsiness and had a blood test - presumably the sleeping pills would have been picked up and his evil plan would have unraveled. So many 'if onlys' with a tragedy like this.
 
  • #649
Hi folks. Does anybody know who is going to take the stand today (Wednesday) and what kind of day it will be? I was thinking of going along to the trial but Monday seemed rather boring I think, just listening back to IS' interviews with police, which were uploaded onto the internet anyway....
 
  • #650
Exactly my thoughts about the blood pressure. Her mum does state this was 2012 but I didn't think blood pressure could disappear on its own. Doesn't it have to be controlled/managed. I would like to know if she was on medication for it.


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Someone with high blood pressure who is overweight and does not move much, can lower their blood pressure by making life changes, namely losing weight and exercising. A walk a day will do wonders.
But as far as I'm aware HB wasn't overweight, and she made those daily walks thanks to Boris.
Perhaps stress due to grief had something to do with it (if this happened in 2012) but then again, something would have to be done about it, and medication plus regular check-ups would have been the best way to go.

I'm no great believer in the use of herbs, because if they worked, that would make them dangerous for persons with normal or low blood pressure.
 
  • #651
Wonder if her HBP was because of the zopiclone:

"High blood pressure is found among people who take Zopiclone, especially for people who are female, 60+ old , have been taking the drug for < 1 month, also take medication Lansoprazole, and have Rheumatoid arthritis . We study 11,943 people who have side effects while taking Zopiclone from FDA. Among them, 372 have High blood pressure."

http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/zopiclone/high blood pressure/
 
  • #652
Yes I think that's true, not only can we not trust a word that comes out of that man's mouth, Helen's books for teenagers were a smash hit and what launched her as a successful author. Writing appealing stories for that most discerning and critical of readerships - teenagers - is no easy task, and Helen had an incredible gift for getting inside their heads and speaking their language. No mean feat for a woman approaching middle age - and one who did not have teenage children of her own! I feel sure her connection with teenagers was a source of pride to her, I believe she often gave talks to them at schools. It doesn't make sense to me that she would have abandoned this readership. IS reveals his own dismissal of her books for young people, he clearly didn't rate them - though he was happy to enjoy the revenue they produced.

He clearly did not rate them at all but was cunning enough to say he had read and loved them on a response to one of her blog posts.


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  • #653
Some brilliant posts overnight, welcome Maud!

I agree with most of what's been said. I can only think that Boris was shut somewhere while IS was killing poor Helen, I agree that he wouldn't have sat there and watched. I think it is, sadly, very likely that he was alive when he went into the pit. I imagine his toy being in there was linked with this.
 
  • #654
I haven't seen all this. Can you provide a link please? I haven't seen it on the blog. Thanks.

It's in her book and not on the blog as far as I can see, a chapter called "Puppy Love".

Another rather telling story is the one where JS buys the Highgate house, which Helen didn't like at all, without telling her.
 
  • #655
Hi folks. Does anybody know who is going to take the stand today (Wednesday) and what kind of day it will be? I was thinking of going along to the trial but Monday seemed rather boring I think, just listening back to IS' interviews with police, which were uploaded onto the internet anyway....

Where can I watch the interviews please?
 
  • #656
I was going to ask the same question, are those interviews really available online? I thought not.

Btw, re Boris, if you remember the veterinary expert witness said [FONT=&quot]&#8220;It cannot be established whether the animal was alive or dead when it was placed in the septic tank.&#8221;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]He said while a small amount of foreign material, likely septic tank debris, was found in the trachea of the dog, this did not extend into the lower airways, and the lungs did not appear heavy or wet.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dr Williams said taking all the findings into account, he could not confirm whether the animal drowned, and confirming drowning in this case would require additional evidence.'
I prefer not to imagine either of them being alive and think it would have given the murderer (leaving the field open for Joe and Nick!) more difficulties if they had not been dead. Do you think if Boris had been poisoned this would have shown up? The vet seemed to say that not much was possible because of decomposition.
I feel the need to assert that even people who are not 'animal-lovers' - in the sense of being pet dog lovers - are unlikely to want to be cruel to dogs. It's true that you'd think a person would come to feel affection for a characterful dog beloved of his own beloved - but this isn't about jealousy of Boris, he just had to be got rid of because he would have given the game away.[/FONT]
 
  • #657
  • #658
Are you meaning the voice recorded interviews? If so, they are both in this link.


http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/listen-moment-murder-suspect-ian-12485253


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Thanks, pinklilies, but no, I thought Lit up was referring to the longer police video interviews which were played to the court, which I felt sure were not on the internet - so if you were near enough to go, it certainly was worth going to the court last week or on Monday.
 
  • #659
Thanks, pinklilies, but no, I thought Lit up was referring to the longer police video interviews which were played to the court, which I felt sure were not on the internet - so if you were near enough to go, it certainly was worth going to the court last week or on Monday.

Ah right, ok.


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  • #660
Tara Cox &#8207;@TaraCoxCN 8m8 minutes ago

Morning all, live court updates again today from the Helen Bailey murder trial. Follow the latest at



the link will be Cambridge News as always, just waiting for the link to become live for today
 
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