GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #2

[Alyce]

Witness is asked by defence to try to lift cesspit lid

Mr Underdown is now being cross-examined by the defence. He said the lid to the cesspit was made of concrete and extremely heavy. He said when he attended the house and the cesspit, he used a crowbar to lift the lid.

Mr Underdown is now being asked to lift the cesspit lid, which is bagged up and can be seen by jurors in the court room.

“That is heavier than a normal lid”, he said. “That’s the sort of lid you need tools to use, crowbars to get it out of the hole.

“I can’t remember if this lid was screwed or not.”

Mr Underdown is now being re-examined by the prosecution.

He admits he could have been confused by the colour of the cesspit lid as to whether it was concrete or not. He is told by prosecutor Stuart Trimmer QC, that there is no doubt that the cesspit lid in question is wooden, with a metal frame underneath.

That is the end of Mr Underdown’s evidence.


http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/new...murder-trial-week-12503618?service=responsive

 

[Alyce]

I don't know, it seems as though there were two covers, one under the first, but this isn't clear from the photos I've seen. I imagined the top cover being like an insert into the garage floor, painted the same colour, with debris underneath, and then an inner cover. She says the inner cover was difficult to move and that the dog "searched over it", so I'm not sure that it was actually lifted then.

I don't understand "bits of wood appeared to be acting as a wench". What does she mean by a wench?

I think it's meant to be a winch - to lever the cover off ?

when I said did he use the other cover to access the septic tank, I meant did he use the one in the garden ( at the back of the garage ) which showed signs of having been lifted up recently

 

[SiSi]

So . . . this all leads to the manhole cover in the garden BEHIND the garage, with the evidence of trapped grass under the lid cover . . . . as being the one used by IS . . . easier to lift . . . Surely he can't get off on this flimsy and diverting attention to the heavier cesspit/well cover???? IS could easily have lifted the "lawn" manhole cover and THIS should be the one in court, surely . . .????

 

[mrazda71]

Yes, I'm not really criticising IS' sons, it's more an observation of what I see as the one-way nature of Helen's life with this ready made family. She seems to be the giver here - buying the big house that presumably IS was so keen on in his home town rather than her beloved London, allowing his grown up sons to live with them (rent free?), cooking for them and tolerating their guests etc. It's one thing to be tolerant of your own grown up children and to indulge them but I think its something else entirely to be so accommodating to the adult children of a new partner. I'm sure Helen had her faults but she was clearly very generous to this family. And she paid with her life - sickening!

I would hardly call them 'grown up' sons when the first bought the house and why the snark about 'rent free' and tolerating guests? And we know nothing of who paid for what AND it's really has no influence on the case at all.

There's so much projecting here!

 

[Rayemonde]

I wouldn't read too much into it; Helen speaks warmly of IS' sons in her blog and not so warmly of JS' son (Jennie's brother) who didn't want to meet IS.


http://planetgrief.com/2015/09/18/tug-of-love/


(This wrt to Helen possibly not having a good relationship with IS' sons as opposed to JS' children)

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/helen-bailey-murder-trial-royston-12491486

He said Helen and one of her former husband’s children were “on very bad terms” because “Helen was the other woman”.

 

[DollyDiamond]

I think that's a bit unfair, they were only seeming to do what the very vast majority of young people do in their own home. I've heard nothing to suggest she was treated any differently to any other parent.

And ... they're not on trial.

As I've said elsewhere, it wasn't really a criticism of IS' sons so much as an observation about Helen's remarkable generosity in tolerating two grown up step children. To welcome his two adult sons into the marital home as she did, with the inevitable inconveniences that will bring, says to me she was a very generous person (to be tolerant of ones own adult children is one thing, to extend the same privileges to someone else's is another matter entirely). Obviously I never lived there and don't know for sure but I get the impression she was rather taken for granted in that lovely home that she had provided for them all. I feel so sad when I picture her making that cottage pie for them all on the Saturday night before she died, chopping onions and no doubt thinking about wedding arrangements without a clue that her fiance was plotting her destruction.

Helen revealed she was somewhat dominated and taken for granted in her first marriage - I suspect the same thing was happening in this relationship though the eventual, horrific outcome could not have been predicted.

 

[Alyce]

Just bringing this back up. I don't see how the two cess pits connecting, hopefully will become clearer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...5million-home-lived-fianc-accused-murder.html

carrying this over to next page

I think ( though am getting a mite confused ) that it is one septic tank with two access points...the manhole cover in the garage and the manhole cover in the garden.
If IS did use the garden manhole cover - possibly there is no crust layer at that point - so that might explain how Helen's body was underneath that crust layer. Her body may have shifted across the tank, during the 3 months, towards the other side of the tank - then ends up underneath the crust layer, which was visible from the garage manhole cover

 

[Cherwell]

“I first went early in 2014, and then secondly I went on April 2, 2015.

Very surprised at this frequency! And the last time only a week before Helen dies!


Alyce - indeed - your comment. This is exactly why I was trying to fathom if he had past exp of septic tanks in his previous home or he'd just googled it.

No, 2015 - it was a year before Helen was killed.

Stewart caught lying again. Didn't he say the tank had never been emptied as far as he knew?

 

[ZaZara]

Yep, I just added a bit more comment under that feed. I wish it was clearer. But it did sound as though the main manhole cover was lifted by the police on that first search day, because the police officer says that it was then replaced - because the sewage system was due to be searched on another task list.
If so, this would surely throw out the argument about it being too heavy for one person to move


eta see Sisi's post 826 - he could have used the other manhole cover,the one in the garden, which had clearly been lifted recently, as indicated by the grass inside the cover.


from the evidence
While searching the rear garden my colleague located a manhole cover to the rear of the garage.

“I noticed that grass was trapped under the lid, having opened it I could see fresh grass had been trapped under the lid, suggesting that it had been recently lifted.

BBM


IMHO that is highly unlikely.
If the police had noticed an inlet into the second tank that was big enough for a body, they would immediately have investigated further.

But let's assume that the pipe was wide enough... how would IS or anyone move an object from a location behind the back of the garage to the cesspit at the entrance of the garage? With a stick or a rod? Crawl behind it like a speleologist? IMHO that cannot be done.

There would also be the risk of something getting stuck along the way, and then the drains would need to be unclogged. HB would be found almost immediately.

My idea is that IS did lift the cover of the second tank, but only to make sure no incriminating stuff had managed to escape from the first pit.

 

[DollyDiamond]

Clearly Helen never knew the boys as young children, let's not nit-pick. I don't want to get into a big argument with you about IS sons. I'll just reiterate my view (which you don't share and that's fine) that Helen was taken for granted in her role as stepmother and partner. This is relevant as it provides a clue to the nature of her relationship with IS. It happens to a lot of women - thankfully most of them end up unhappy and not dead. Poor Helen.

 

[Cherwell]

carrying this over to next page

I think ( though am getting a mite confused ) that it is one septic tank with two access points...the manhole cover in the garage and the manhole cover in the garden.
If IS did use the garden manhole cover - possibly there is no crust layer at that point - so that might explain how Helen's body was underneath that crust layer. Her body may have shifted across the tank, during the 3 months, towards the other side of the tank - then ends up underneath the crust layer, which was visible from the garage manhole cover

My understanding was that there are two tanks, a main tank, and a secondary overflow tank the access to which is outside behind the garage.

 

[DollyDiamond]

I would hardly call them 'grown up' sons when the first bought the house and why the snark about 'rent free' and tolerating guests? And we know nothing of who paid for what AND it's really has no influence on the case at all.

There's so much projecting here!

I responded elsewhere but forgot to quote you, apologies!

 

[SiSi]

Why oh why is not the Prosecution drawing the jury's attention more pertinently to the fact that IS was perfectly capable of lifting the manhole cover in the garden/lawn and to the FACT that there was evidence of grass trapped beneath, indicating recent removal/replacement !!!!!

Obviously, a weight such as a body would plummet down and be carried towards the cesspit/well sited beneath the garage . . . hence floating to just below the encrusted surface . . . .

 

[Alyce]

Next witness: John Beavis who drained the septic tank on April 22

The next witness is John Beavis, who is employed by Star Environmental Limited, which does drainage of septic tanks and cesspits.

Giving evidence, he tells jurors: “We are trained in dealing with that using vacuum tankers. Hertfordshire police called me and I was asked to provide a drainer to drain a septic tank.

“A first appointment was made on April 22, and I was shown to the rear of the property down the drive.

“There was a garage, we walked around this garage to the garden, where there was a septic tank.

“On this first occasion, I was only asked to attend to the cesspit at the back of the house in the garden.

“We fitted drainage pipes from the tanker to the septic tank, we drained it, and that was that”


http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/new...murder-trial-week-12503618?service=responsive

 

[DollyDiamond]

No, 2015 - it was a year before Helen was killed.

Stewart caught lying again. Didn't he say the tank had never been emptied as far as he knew?

Indeed he did - yet again he demonstrates he'd not as clever as he thinks he is!

 

[Cherwell]

Clearly Helen never knew the boys as young children, let's not nit-pick. I don't want to get into a big argument with you about IS sons. I'll just reiterate my view (which you don't share and that's fine) that Helen was taken for granted in her role as stepmother and partner. This is relevant as it provides a clue to the nature of her relationship with IS. It happens to a lot of women - thankfully most of them end up unhappy and not dead. Poor Helen.

I did gather that there was some friction, if that's not too strong a word, over O's girlfriend staying the night, which Helen was apparently not keen on, for whatever reason.

 

[Alyce]

Ashish Joshi ‏@ashishskynews 5m5 minutes ago

John Russell Beavis' firm supplied a vacuum tanker to Herts police to drain cesspit at Helen Bailey's address. He did it twice.


The second time was the 15th July. The jury are shown photos of the open cesspit on the day. He says prodding the sewage he felt something.

 

[Alyce]

John Beavis returns to drain second cesspit

On July 15 I received another call to go back. I went on my own, and met a police officer at the Royston house about 10am. He said: “I was told police were now aware of another cesspit in the garage. I was asked to drain that cesspit.

“I was asked to put a forensic suit on, and went into the garage on the right hand side.”


http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/new...murder-trial-week-12503618?service=responsive

 

[pinklilies]

No, 2015 - it was a year before Helen was killed.

Stewart caught lying again. Didn't he say the tank had never been emptied as far as he knew?

I think he went one further and said he didn't even know there was one there.

 

[DollyDiamond]

carrying this over to next page

I think ( though am getting a mite confused ) that it is one septic tank with two access points...the manhole cover in the garage and the manhole cover in the garden.
If IS did use the garden manhole cover - possibly there is no crust layer at that point - so that might explain how Helen's body was underneath that crust layer. Her body may have shifted across the tank, during the 3 months, towards the other side of the tank - then ends up underneath the crust layer, which was visible from the garage manhole cover

Surely he is unlikely to have dumped the bodies in the garden access point? The garage cesspit opening would be private and not overlooked.