GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #2

[cottonweaver]

I wonder if he thought a body would decompose quickly in the tank like effluent does? I was surprised when the pathologist said it would actually act to preserve it although decomposition would be swift once the body came in contact with the air. Maybe IS just thought Helen and Boris would dissolve down there. It does beggar belief though.

Agree , it's strange. I posted a link pre-trial to show a pathologist explaining that the tank doesn't always have the effect we would think and subtle injuries/COD may be detected even some many many months in future.

However a last minute panic by him (for hiding her body) is back on the table again for me, after today. Frustrating really.

Re your ULined - Warning graphic WS content - this will not work on human bone.

This is not the "perfect hiding place" after all??? ( Previous owners words. )

 

[Squamous]

It has always made me think about Helen's dislike/fear or anxiety of water ( as in the sea or a large body of water ) and to have her end up placed into a watery grave just adds to the horror and shows the level of disrespect he had for her.

Indeed. Particularly if he let her drown. What an absolute .

 

[SiSi]

MORE damning evidence from the septic tank man . . ..

IS tells police he has no idea what the manhole in the lawn is -- he just mows around it . . ..

Yet the septic tank has been emptied TWICE by same firm when IS lives in the house
AND he has discussed the way septic tank system works !!!!!! Wow!!!!

 

[DollyDiamond]

MORE damning evidence from the septic tank man . . ..

IS tells police he has no idea what the manhole in the lawn is -- he just mows around it . . ..

Yet the septic tank has been emptied TWICE by same firm when IS lives in the house
AND he has discussed the way septic tank system works !!!!!! Wow!!!!

I think of all the mistakes IS has made, his biggest is thinking other people are more stupid than he is!

 

[DollyDiamond]

Yes, the police officer seemed to say that he alone and poking the crust when he felt change of texture and found Helen's arm, the contractor sounds like he is suggesting he was alone.

I suppose the upshot is that they found her, and it was horrific

Didn't the police officer say the cess pit man handed him a hoe, and then he (copper) prodded the crust and felt Helen's arm soft beneath? I think it was one or other of the 2 men and they are fuzzy on details. It is odd though - if I had discovered a dead body the sequence of events would be crystal clear in my memory forever!

 

[cottonweaver]

I think of all the mistakes IS has made, his biggest is thinking other people are more stupid than he is!

Think you've probably summed this up in one sentence Dolly.

 

[DollyDiamond]

I think most probably he managed to fool her because he got in there while she was at the most vulnerable stage of grieving, 5 months in is nothing and she'll have been a mess mentally. This man has played her big style and unfortunately her mental state at the time hasn't allowed her to see his true colours..... just my opinion....

Totally agree - she got involved with a man far too soon after the death of her husband IMO. She was still grieving and reeling from the shock of her loss. Had IS been a decent fella who loved her it could have come good. But her judgement must have been impaired at that particular time and no doubt she was lonely and vulnerable to a predator saying all the right things to her. On her blog she warns widows to stay safe on internet dates and specifically warns them not to disclose financial information, to deter gold diggers. I wonder if it ever occurred to her what IS' true motives were - ie that he was only after her money?

 

[Alyce]

I wonder if he thought a body would decompose quickly in the tank like effluent does? I was surprised when the pathologist said it would actually act to preserve it although decomposition would be swift once the body came in contact with the air. Maybe IS just thought Helen and Boris would dissolve down there. It does beggar belief though.

I think he was absolutely sure that the bodies would decompose, quickly. As I've said before on this thread, he clearly doesn't read any crime writer message boards, which would have told him differently ( although a lye solution added to the tank would have helped him considerably ).
Plus he didn't have many other options, as I see it. I can't see him digging a burial place, or putting a body in a car and having to drive to a convenient lake or river or secluded wooded area.

 

[Squamous]

True. It does make me wonder how planned it all was (I know others have been wondering this for ages, I'm slow on the uptake ) . The tank must have even been due an empty!

 

[mrazda71]

Clearly Helen never knew the boys as young children, let's not nit-pick. I don't want to get into a big argument with you about IS sons. I'll just reiterate my view (which you don't share and that's fine) that Helen was taken for granted in her role as stepmother and partner. This is relevant as it provides a clue to the nature of her relationship with IS. It happens to a lot of women - thankfully most of them end up unhappy and not dead. Poor Helen.

We don't have arguments on Websleuth, we debate and discuss which is healthy as too much of one persons opinion is dull.

What proof can you provide that Helen paid for everything (including the house) and was 'taken for granted'? Or that she was unhappy?

 

[Alyce]

True. It does make me wonder how planned it all was (I know others have been wondering this for ages, I'm slow on the uptake ) . The tank must have even been due an empty!

I imagine a new appointment would not have been scheduled for a while

 

[ZaZara]

I wonder if he thought a body would decompose quickly in the tank like effluent does? I was surprised when the pathologist said it would actually act to preserve it although decomposition would be swift once the body came in contact with the air. Maybe IS just thought Helen and Boris would dissolve down there. It does beggar belief though.

I would have thought that soft tissue disappears over time, but that bones will remain intact much longer. As will buttons, zippers, leather and maybe even certain fabrics. They would not float, like a body, but sink to the bottom of the well.

That's why archaeologists love old cesspits.

I'm beginning to think IS had a tunnel vision of sorts, caused by depression or something similar in his brain. Part of his MO is chilling, and part of it is plain stupid. As if he had not thought things through. Like how would friends and family react to HB's disappearance, what would the Police do when she was reported missing, how would the sewage system operate if the cesspit could no longer be emptied ... and so on.

A little google search would have informed IS of all he needed to know.

 

[jessie]

We don't have arguments on Websleuth, we debate and discuss which is healthy as too much of one persons opinion is dull.

What proof can you provide that Helen paid for everything (including the house) and was 'taken for granted'? Or that she was unhappy?

I am curious to know what names were on the house deeds - and also how much of a monetary contribution each gave towards its purchase.

 

[mrazda71]

Totally agree - she got involved with a man far too soon after the death of her husband IMO. She was still grieving and reeling from the shock of her loss. Had IS been a decent fella who loved her it could have come good. But her judgement must have been impaired at that particular time and no doubt she was lonely and vulnerable to a predator saying all the right things to her. On her blog she warns widows to stay safe on internet dates and specifically warns them not to disclose financial information, to deter gold diggers. I wonder if it ever occurred to her what IS' true motives were - ie that he was only after her money?

Whilst this would make a great novel I imagine ... we don't know anything of their relationship and how genuine it was. We don't know that Ian is a predator or that he targeted her or was just after a widow with money.

In fact, all we have been told is that they were very happy and they may well have been... obviously, something went wrong from Ians perspective at some point but that's not to say that he was the pantomime villain from day 1.

 

[Cherwell]

We don't have arguments on Websleuth, we debate and discuss which is healthy as too much of one persons opinion is dull.

What proof can you provide that Helen paid for everything (including the house) and was 'taken for granted'? Or that she was unhappy?

The only person on trial is Ian Stewart.

 

[Bethan]

Ah I wonder if that was how the duvet got soiled? Helen and Boris didn't have any injuries that would have soiled a duvet so maybe Boris attacked IS,as IS was suffocating Helen, and IS bled onto the duvet. The dog bites may have been in a place he could cover.

I suspect Helen was suffocated with the duvet & may have put up more of a fight than the murderer expected. Despite being heavily sedated, it is the body's instinctive reaction to being starved of oxygen.

There could well have been Helen's saliva & blood on the duvet.

I'm sorry to be graphic & mods please remove this if you wish.

( Apologies, I'm several hours behind catching up on the thread )


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[mrazda71]

I am curious to know what names were on the house deeds - and also how much of a monetary contribution each gave towards its purchase.

Someone did find some info early on. It was suggested by some then that Ian was a penniless money grabber and someone actually made some nasty remarks about 'his shabby council house' about a photo taken of them inside a house which actually turned out to Helens house (oops someone had humble pie to chew on) and his house sold for a fair amount if I recall correctly.

Will do some digging!

 

[Alyce]

I would have thought that soft tissue disappears over time, but that bones will remain intact much longer. As will buttons, zippers, leather and maybe even certain fabrics. They would not float, like a body, but sink to the bottom of the well.

That's way archaeologists love old cesspits.

I'm beginning to think IS had a tunnel vision of sorts, caused by depression or something similar in his brain. Part of his MO is chilling, and part of it is plain stupid. As if he had not thought things through. Like how would friends and family react to HB's disappearance, what would the Police do when she was reported missing, how would the sewage system operate if the cesspit could no longer be emptied ... and so on.

A little google search would have informed IS of all he needed to know.

This is me surmising, but I got the impression that IS did not know Helen's friends or family very well. Some of my impression has been formed from stuff that I cant talk of on here.
one example - Tracey called Helen's brother when she couldnt get hold of Helen. Wouldnt it have been more normal to call the partner that Helen lived with.

I think he miscalculated hugely and had no idea they would be seriously concerned, right from the beginning, about Helen's disappearance.

Perhaps his friends ( of which we know nothing so far ) would not have been seriously concerned if he had gone off for some time alone and he based his judgement on this ?

 

[Alyce]

I am curious to know what names were on the house deeds - and also how much of a monetary contribution each gave towards its purchase.

It has been mentioned that there is going to be financial evidence at some point, so hopefully we will find out more then.

 

[cottonweaver]

I would have thought that soft tissue disappears over time, but that bones will remain intact much longer. As will buttons, zippers, leather and maybe even certain fabrics. They would not float, like a body, but sink to the bottom of the well.

That's way archaeologists love old cesspits.

I'm beginning to think IS had a tunnel vision of sorts, caused by depression or something similar in his brain. Part of his MO is chilling, and part of it is plain stupid. As if he had not thought things through. Like how would friends and family react to HB's disappearance, what would the Police do when she was reported missing, how would the sewage system operate if the cesspit could no longer be emptied ... and so on.

A little google search would have informed IS of all he needed to know.

BIB have been thinking the same on this. He was about 15 months into his own bereavement when he met with Helen? I'm putting aside for a moment my thoughts about Diane's death just to consider if as well as being a cunning killer, he had a range of co-morbid mental health issues.
It's possible - won't do him any good re the conviction, of course.

The previous links on decomp timescales in septics

http://www.kaieteurnewsonline.com/2015/06/16/body-in-septic-tank-court-hears-gory-details-of-post-mortem-examination/
http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/post-mortem-changes/putrefaction