GUILTY UK - Jordan Burling, 18, Died Weighing Less Than 6 Stone, Body Of Baby Also Found, Leeds, June 2016

[Tortoise]

I don't think I've ever been so conflicted over the merits of prosecuting as I am in this case. But I feel guilty for writing that, as if I should agree. It all just feels too late.

 

[always reading]

16:45
Cross examination
Mr Lumley, prosecuting, did not challenge Dr Van Velsen’s findings but he did ask her a number of questions about Dawn’s abilities.

They established that Dawn was able to:

• Understand the charges brought against
• Instruct her lawyers, stand trial and give evidence
• Feed and cloth herself
• Travel to and from work independently
• Shop online
• Hold down a job

He also asked the psychiatrist about a phonecall Dawn claimed that she made shortly before Jordan’s death.

According to Dr Van Velsen, Dawn says she phoned the doctor’s surgery, but when no one answered she did not leave a message and did not try again.


16:45
Trial adjourned
The trial has been adjourned for today.
Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house

This shows she has the mental capacity to know that she should have gotten him help much sooner.

 

[Sooty]

I personally, and no doubt, controversially, think that she has done well to give evidence in her defence. I'm amazed that she felt able to face the courtroom in cross examination. Considering her detachment from the outside world. I am sure that all three of them (and Jordan possibly was too) are quite similar in psychological profile? Grandmother in particular. My own opinions of course. I feel really quite uncomfortable following this case, but I do believe it is an important one.

 

[Sooty]

From the testimonies I just get this overwhelming feeling of an impotency in their lives. It is so sad. It would be good to hear from someone who has been in the court to hear what they make of the witnesses.

 

[Legally Bland]

I personally, and no doubt, controversially, think that she has done well to give evidence in her defence. I'm amazed that she felt able to face the courtroom in cross examination. Considering her detachment from the outside world. I am sure that all three of them (and Jordan possibly was too) are quite similar in psychological profile? Grandmother in particular. My own opinions of course. I feel really quite uncomfortable following this case, but I do believe it is an important one.

Yeah, I'm expecting the other two to have similar psychological evidence witnessed.

It really does explain a lot about what happened.

I think it's up to the judge to explain how the jury should interpret this in law, then wait and see.

I've been trying to work out how much their psychological issues should excuse their actions and I don't have an answer.

 

[Legally Bland]

Leeds 4 T20177383
Abigail Burling
Dawn Cranston
Denise Cranston
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Defence DENISE CRANSTON Case Opened - 10:26
Trial (Part Heard) - Witness Number 35 Continues - 10:27

Leeds Crown Court Listings, hearings, cases & details

 

[Aescwynn]

I personally, and no doubt, controversially, think that she has done well to give evidence in her defence. I'm amazed that she felt able to face the courtroom in cross examination. Considering her detachment from the outside world. I am sure that all three of them (and Jordan possibly was too) are quite similar in psychological profile? Grandmother in particular. My own opinions of course. I feel really quite uncomfortable following this case, but I do believe it is an important one.

No, I agree. I've said some harsh-sounding things about her, but I still haven't wavered in my opinion that she is genuinely mentally ill and that she doesn't belong in a prison. I've further revised my opinion to think maybe that she may be on the autism spectrum. I live with two high-functioning ASD people and from speaking with various therapists and from my own interactions with them, lying is an unfortunate thing that many of them resort to when they feel unsure about a situation, or overwhelmed. Serious mental illness is also a known co-morbidity of autism; and we're starting to understand that there's a genetic component at work, too.

So yes. The whole family seems to be similar in profile.

 

[Kasmeer]

No, I agree. I've said some harsh-sounding things about her, but I still haven't wavered in my opinion that she is genuinely mentally ill and that she doesn't belong in a prison. I've further revised my opinion to think maybe that she may be on the autism spectrum. I live with two high-functioning ASD people and from speaking with various therapists and from my own interactions with them, lying is an unfortunate thing that many of them resort to when they feel unsure about a situation, or overwhelmed. Serious mental illness is also a known co-morbidity of autism; and we're starting to understand that there's a genetic component at work, too.

So yes. The whole family seems to be similar in profile.

BBM, As someone on the spectrum, I see your point, but I'd say in my case it's not conscious "lying", it's just getting my mind so tied up in knots I just say whatever I think the other person wants to hear (without realising it's not true until I can calm down outside the situation), or else getting completely confused while knowing I have to give an answer of some kind. Example: I had bad eyestrain last year, went to the optician, stressful, but having been there before and knowing what to expect I was mostly OK, till he gave me a test I'd never had before. I got in such a muddle that I said no when I should have said yes, to a very simple question (I only realised what I'd done after I left).

Now you say that, I can see how this could fit; I'd already thought Dawn's responses, while evasive, were probably similar to what I'd manage if I found myself being crossexamined. There's much more than that though, I still find it really hard to believe that anyone capable of independent living could not see that Jordan's condition was clearly needing medical care. Admittedly, if he had a very forceful personality, and really was genuinely not wanting to see the doctor, she might have been intimidated to not call for help, I could see myself in that position, actually. Even so, I'd have done something when it got to sores down to the bone for goodness sake, it's the fact that it got that far which makes it very hard for me to have any sympathy here.

 

[Tortoise]

Ah well no reports today it seems. Press aren't interested in Gran.

 

[KarenUK]

Ah well no reports today it seems. Press aren't interested in Gran.

There's a bit on The Mirrors page, but it is just a summary and doesn't tell us anything new.

Mum who 'left teen son to rot and die' tells court why she didn't call for help

 

[Aescwynn]

BBM, As someone on the spectrum, I see your point, but I'd say in my case it's not conscious "lying", it's just getting my mind so tied up in knots I just say whatever I think the other person wants to hear (without realising it's not true until I can calm down outside the situation), or else getting completely confused while knowing I have to give an answer of some kind.

That is a kinder way to explain it, more accurate and much like my ASD husband would explain it. Please forgive my fumbling neurotypical attempts to describe what goes on.

Now you say that, I can see how this could fit; I'd already thought Dawn's responses, while evasive, were probably similar to what I'd manage if I found myself being crossexamined. There's much more than that though, I still find it really hard to believe that anyone capable of independent living could not see that Jordan's condition was clearly needing medical care. Admittedly, if he had a very forceful personality, and really was genuinely not wanting to see the doctor, she might have been intimidated to not call for help, I could see myself in that position, actually. Even so, I'd have done something when it got to sores down to the bone for goodness sake, it's the fact that it got that far which makes it very hard for me to have any sympathy here.

Exactly-- there's a lot more going on here, and I am putting it down to some serious mental illness in Dawn's case.

Denise, IMO, is a serious cypher. Her comments about finally being able to get his room and the like may be the real clue to the dynamic and that family, but I don't know.

 

[Aescwynn]

Ah well no reports today it seems. Press aren't interested in Gran.

And that is a shame, because I personally think she's very important to the case.

 

[Legally Bland]

Some (not much) reporting from today:

Emaciated teen 'got nasty over GP order'

 

[Tortoise]

Some (not much) reporting from today:

Emaciated teen 'got nasty over GP order'

I'm surprised. They are not emotional people from the quotes we've heard but she says "In my heart I thought he was going to get better, I believed that,". I'm surprised she says in her heart, which is a feeling place and not a reasoning or rationalising centre. It could be her way of lying, and avoiding saying that in her head she didn't think that.

She's been on the stand all day and it's annoying to think there was a journalist there and we only get this much reporting.

 

[Legally Bland]

11:16KEY EVENT
Day 14: Grandmother Denise Cranston in the witness box
Denise Cranston (Jordan’s grandma) is in the witness box.
Mr Lumley, prosecuting, asked her if Jordan was a hypochondriac.
She replied: “When he were younger.”
The barrister then asked if she ever called him a hypochondriac.
She said: “Yes, it became part of a family joke.”
She also told the court that if there was an illness going round he would usually claim that he had it and sometimes he would say that he had contracted an obscure foreign disease.
“He had them all,” she added.
Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house

 

[Legally Bland]

11:21
Jordan had 'no problems' walking before he refused to get out of chair
Mr Lumley asked Denise whether Jordan ever had any problems walking or going to the toilet or walking before he refused to get out of the chair and his health deteriorated rapidly. She said no.

Mr Lumley asked: “Was he in and out of the kitchen?”
Denise said: “Oh yes.”

“Helping himself to food and drink?”
“He definitely was.”

“Up and down the stairs throughout the day?”
“Yes.”


“Dressing himself and caring for himself?”
‘Yes’
Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house

ETA: Lumley is the prosecutor, so this is cross-examination.

 

[Legally Bland]

12:28
Denise describes Jordan's sores
Mr Lumley asked Denise about her grandson’s weight loss in the months leading up to his death.


She said his weight ‘fluctuated’ throughout his life but was losing weight over the last few months of his life.

She said: “After he had that diarrhoea he put a little bit back on at Christmas. Then he never seemed to put anymore on.”


Mr Lumley then asked Denise whether it was obvious that Jordan needed medical attention in April and she said ‘yes’.

The barrister moved on to ask about Jordan’s sores.

Denise told the court that she first spotted on at the bottom of his back when he lent forward and his t-shirt came up. That was just before they started putting him in nappies.


Mr Lumley asked her whether she had every seen anything like that on his body before.

“No.”

He then asked her whether she said anything to Jordan about the sore.
“Yes. I asked him what were on his back and I asked him why he didn’t say nowt but he didn’t reply.”

She also said that she didn’t see any others at that time and she asked Jordan whether it hurt but he said ‘it didn’t’.

“Was it shocking to see?” asked Mr Lumley.
“Yes.”

“Had you ever seen something like this before?” he asked.
“Not on him.”

She later added: “I think I saw something years ago, when I was visiting my father on the (hospital) ward.”

Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house

 

[Legally Bland]

12:30
'His wounds did smell'
Denise also the court that Jordan refused to let anyone look at it and he ‘never’ said that he was in pain.

Mr Lumley pointed out that she told police his wounds ‘did smell’ on some occasions.
When he asked her about the smell, she said:

“I couldn’t smell it, because I have trouble with my nose you see.”

She added: “I got nose blind to it.”


Mr Lumley then asked her if she got annoyed because he refused to see a doctor.
“I was in a way, Yes. I used o tell him he should see a doctor. I used to say he weren’t right and that.”

Mr Lumley asked her if she eventually decided to ‘give up’ treating Jordan.
“We gave up asking him but we treated him.”

Denise then told the court about how her and Dawn would clean Jordan.
She said Jordan would not let them look at him directly when they were changing his nappy and they effectively have to do it blind.

She also said they would lay Jordan down and try to roll him onto his side, so they could clean his back, but he resisted.
“We tried to roll him onto his side but he rolled back so we couldn’t look at him. It were hard work.”

Mr Lumley said that when Dawn was giving evidence, she made it clear that Denise would clean his back and she would clean his sides.
“We would try to get him on his side but he would go back so we couldn’t see nowt.”

Mr Lumley asked her if he was in pain when they cleaned him.
She said he would never say that he was in pain, even when they asked but sometimes he would ‘shudder’ when he was moved.

Mr Lumley then pointed out that she told police the sores ‘looked painful’.

She said:

“At the end it looked painful. They got better but they got worse.”


Denise then told the court that he refused to take any painkillers throughout his life and the only pills she saw him take willingly were the anti-diarrhoea tablets.

Mr Lumley asked her whether she insisted that he took painkillers.
“He would never ever take tablets. He didn’t like to take tablets whatsoever.”
She added: “He always refused to take tablets, he didn’t believe in them.”

Mr Lumley then asked her whether she thought Jordan was at risk of a serious infection.
“I believed in my heart he were going to get better.”

Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house

 

[Legally Bland]

12:38
Jordan 'changed massively'
Mr Lumley has also asked her about the ‘dramatic’ change and his decision to remain in the chair.


Denise said:

“He said his leg cracked and he weren’t going to walk again. He just walked a little bit with help then he wouldn’t.”

Mr Lumley asked: “Was he a completely different person to the person he had been?”

“Yes he changed.”

“He changed massively didn’t he,” said Mr Lumley.

“Yes.”

Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house

 

[Legally Bland]

12:42
'We were planning Jordan's future'
Mr Lumley asked Denise if she was aware that Jordan’s was at risk of infection because there was a ‘full nappy around those sores’.


“Yes, but we were planning his future. He wanted to go to wrestling.”


She added:


“We got him a Zimmerman frame to help him start walking and he would talk about when he would go wrestling all the time.”


‘It turns out, you didn’t do what was best for Jordan,’ said Mr Lumley.

‘We did what we thought were best,’ she said.

Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house