GUILTY UK - Jordan Burling, 18, Died Weighing Less Than 6 Stone, Body Of Baby Also Found, Leeds, June 2016

  • #301
12:43
Denise and Dawn 'might have' talked about calling a doctor
Mr Lumley then asked about Dawn’s claims that she refused to let her get help.
“I didn’t do that. I never done that.” she said.
She then told the court that her and Dawn ‘might have’ talked about calling a doctor but it was difficult because Jordan was always in the room and he would refuse.

Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house
 
  • #302
12:47
'We were trying our best'
After a few more questions, Mr Lumley asked Denise if she ever saw Jordan’s bones through his sores.
She admitted that she did and said: “We used to call it gristle”.

“When he was like that - couldn’t walk, filling a nappy - who was best equipped to make him better?” asked Mr Lumley.
“We were trying our best,” said Denise.

“Was a nurse or a doctor best equipped to make him better?”
“They would have been but he wouldn’t have had ‘em.”

Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house
 
  • #303
12:48
'I didn't know he were going to die'
Mr Lumley said that during a police interview, Denise was asked whether she thought they were equipped to help Jordan.

She said: “I suppose not but we’re family.”

She also told police:

“I believe in the thing that you’ve got to get worse to get better.”

Denise then told the court:


“I didn’t know he were going to die. I thought he were going to get better.”


Mr Lumley said: “By failing to get proper help for him, from someone who was properly equipped, you’ve killed him haven’t you?”

“No, I would never do that,” she replied.

Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house
 
  • #304
12:57
Psychologist's report about Denise Cranston
The cross examination of Denise Cranston is now over.

Mr Pitten, defending, then stood up and submitted two pieces of evidence.
The first the summary of a report from forensic psychologist Dr Harry Wood, which states:

  • When he met with Dawn Cranston and asked about Jordan she ‘abruptly’ switched between ‘friendly and light hearted’ to ‘distressed’ and tearful.
  • This suggests an emotional attachment.
  • When she completed an IQ test she was found to be in the 95 percentile , which means that 91% of people score higher than that.
  • Her working memory skills are limited.
  • She is a hugely compliant individual, but it noted that compliance is very different from suggestibility.
  • Aspects of her personality fit ‘a paranoid personality style’.
  • There is no evidence of a mental disorder.
Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house
 
  • #305
There's another son?
_______________

13:08
Son Carl 'well supported' by Dawn
The second piece of evidence that Mr Pitter submitted was the summary of a report from Matthew Linley, a risk manager who works in adult social care.
After carrying out an assessment of Dawn’s son Carl, he found:

  • He has a learning disability which has never been diagnosed.
  • He requires support in all areas of everyday life.
  • He was ‘well supported’ by Dawn.
  • He was in good health and showed no signs of mental illness.
Mr Pitten said he would not be submitting anymore evidence.


13:08
No evidence from Abigail Burling
Abigail Burling’s legal representative then told the court that he would not submit any evidence at all.
The judge reminded him that the jury can make inferences about Abigail’s guilt, based on her decision not to give evidence.
Her legal representative said that he had advised her about that risk and she instructed him not to give evidence.


13:12
Trial adjourned until Monday
The judge then took the decision to adjourn the trial until Monday.
He asked the jury not to discuss the case with anyone outside the court during their break and told them not to reach any conclusions of guilt over the weekend as they will not be asked for a verdict on Monday morning.

Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house
 
  • #306
Thanks LB.

The reporter is getting mixed up with the names. The reports at 12:57 and 13:08 should say Denise, not Dawn, IMO.

Carl is Denise's son and therefore Dawn's brother.
 
  • #307
Thanks LB.

The reporter is getting mixed up with the names. The reports at 12:57 and 13:08 should say Denise, not Dawn, IMO.

Carl is Denise's son and therefore Dawn's brother.
That makes more sense, especially as it was part of Denise's defence.
 
  • #308
Mr Lumley then asked about Dawn’s claims that she refused to let her get help.
“I didn’t do that. I never done that.” she said.

OK, so who tried to throw whom under the bus? Did Dawn try to blame her mother or is Denise denying responsibility?

In any case, Denise comes off to me as flippant, but in that "I'm not gonna let you see how upset I really am" kind of way; and her testimony is consistent. It doesn't run around in spaghetti knots like Dawn's does.

Thank you for the transcription, LB.
 
  • #309
Prosecution's question to Denise;

Mr Lumley said: “By failing to get proper help for him, from someone who was properly equipped, you’ve killed him haven’t you?”

“No, I would never do that,” she replied.


Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house



Prosecution's question to Dawn;

The prosecutor continued: "Nobody is suggesting that you deliberately killed him.

"A long time before that, you should have picked up the phone shouldn't you?"


Mum who 'left teen son to rot and die' tells court why she didn't call for help


This is quite a difficult concept to grasp, even the prosecutor seems to have difficulty wording the accusation. I hope there is clear reporting of the judge's directions.

I suppose it could be similar to not supervising a child with a pond in the garden, but this involves an adult, legally, with a will of his own. When they asked Dawn if Jordan could have lived independently I think they were tiptoeing around the issue of him not being a competent adult, without a medical diagnosis.
 
  • #310
12:57
Psychologist's report about Denise Cranston
The cross examination of Denise Cranston is now over.

Mr Pitten, defending, then stood up and submitted two pieces of evidence.
The first the summary of a report from forensic psychologist Dr Harry Wood, which states:

  • When he met with Dawn Cranston and asked about Jordan she ‘abruptly’ switched between ‘friendly and light hearted’ to ‘distressed’ and tearful.
  • This suggests an emotional attachment.
  • When she completed an IQ test she was found to be in the 95 percentile , which means that 91% of people score higher than that.
Live: Family on trial after dead teen and baby found in Leeds house

I’m confused on the IQ. According to every chart I’ve ever seen 95 percentile is HIGH on the scale.
 
  • #311
I’m confused on the IQ. According to every chart I’ve ever seen 95 percentile is HIGH on the scale.
I expect it's a reporter error in that case.
 
  • #312
I’m confused on the IQ. According to every chart I’ve ever seen 95 percentile is HIGH on the scale.

I agree, but I'm willing to bet my house she aint a genius.
 
  • #313
I’m confused on the IQ. According to every chart I’ve ever seen 95 percentile is HIGH on the scale.

It think the term "scoring in the 95 percentile" means scoring between 70 and 130 in the test like 95% of the population, but Google is giving me many different answers to what 95 percentile means. Ironically, my IQ is too low to understand it ;):confused:

What Are IQ Percentiles

What Different IQ Scores Mean

If the family are telling the truth then what they are able to normalise is absurd - he just stops walking one day and wearing nappies and they carry on as though thats completely normal? I think there is a fair amount of covering up for themselves.
 
Last edited:
  • #314
What strikes me about the case is that there appears to be a form of self reliance within the family. A belief that they can remain private and deal with whatever life throws at them, themselves, rather than seeking out help and engagement with state sponsored agencies. I think that certainly Dawns psychological profile reflects this.

Karl, has undiagnosed leaning difficulties and Denise appears to have managed to adequately care for him over his 47 years without Social Services. The 'stillborn' baby was not registered, nor medical attention asked for for mother or baby, without this interface it became impossible for Dawn to then get the baby buried. Jordan 'refused' to seek medical assistance, and none was sought on his behalf until it was clear (to the family) that he was dying. Jordan finished his education through homeschooling. I would guess that Denise's husband was not engaged with Mental Health Services before his suicide either. Were police involved in the incidents of anti-social behaviour? I'm not sure if we were told that, or not.

Taking the witnesses word at truth - I do ask myself what difference it would have made IF they had sought out being monitored by the agencies responsible for recording all these events/situations and employing professionals to assist - my answer would be 'negligible difference in all honesty, except to offer support to the ones who are in the dock today'. Perhaps with the exception of Jordan (which of course is crucial) but only providing that he wanted to engage and receive help. If what they say is true, and he wouldn't have listened; taken medication; allowed for a sustenance drip and hospitalisation and rehabilitation, then monitoring - it wouldn't have made any difference - I don't think they could have forced him, anymore so than the family could have done - unless they sectioned him - which is probably what would have happened??? Its all so so sad.

Excuse my lack of correct terminologies. My own opinion only.
 
  • #315
I just caught up on what I missed in the last week. I just still get this feeling Denise is lying and manipulative. On the other hand Dawn also seems like she's constantly saying whatever she thinks she needs to say or someone wants to hear. I don't know why I read her lying totally differently than I read Denise.

I also googled pressure sores. *OMG* I have a really hard time with that. That is so much worse than "just" emaciated and won't walk anymore. Dawn seemed to insist she never saw this pressure sore on his back because she 'only' cleaned his front and sides. And then Denise trying to say he would constantly roll on his back so she couldn't see it. Right. If he's rolling to keep people from seeing his privates he's not gonna be rolling over and hiding his backside he'd be hiding his front parts imo.

He's laying on an air mattress, not walking, not really eating, having his mom and grandmother change his nappies but he really tried to keep grandma from seeing the pressure sore on his back? I don't believe it. It also contradicts the earlier testimony about the good care they provided by bandaging his pressure sores with menstrual pads. Now their testimony is that he rolled all over and didn't want them to look at him directly so they were cleaning and bandaging him "blind".

My previous sympathy for them and their ability to understand the situation doesn't exist that much today.
 
  • #316
Whatever the outcome this has been a truly thought-provoking case.

I hope we get thorough reporting of the judge's interpretation of the law for the jury. I'm not sure we will though, with the typical standards of journalism.
 
  • #317
  • #318
Aww bless him,I seen his pic and he looks great,hard to believe it's the same boy their talking about in court,so sad to know this has happened
 
  • #319
  • #320
Oh, now I remember the judge sometimes gives directions before and after closing speeches.

It happened in the Leanne McKie trial and another that I can't think of quite recently.
 

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