VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Ruthbullock]

Just curious, do you have vehicular and involuntary vehicular homicide? That is used here for example if a drunk person runs over and kills a person.

Nope- still murder (you intend to kill), manslaughter (you should have realised it would cause death) and not guilty

 

[Cherwell]

Nope- still murder (you intend to kill), manslaughter (you should have realised it would cause death) and not guilty

There are separate offences of causing death by dangerous, careless, or inconsiderate driving.
Road Safety Act 2006 - Wikipedia

 

[C.greek]

Was thinking more about PR mentioning her knickers a few times, that she had taken them off. For me, this lie is calculated: he knew she had them on when he put her in the river so he could have thought that by saying that when he left her alive she didn't have her knickers on, had she ever be found with her knickers on, that would somehow explain/ be a good excuse for him that she was indeed alive when he left her and even managed to put her knickers on herself before ending up in the river. Jmo. Musing over little details that spring to mind.

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

Were the knickers still pushed aside when her body was recovered? Or was it simply that they were still on that indicated to the prosecution that she was raped with them on?

 

[C.greek]

Were the knickers still pushed aside when her body was recovered? Or was it simply that they were still on that indicated to the prosecution that she was raped with them on?

I doubt they would have still remained aside? I guess it was that they were still on

 

[Dotta]

I doubt they would have still remained aside? I guess it was they they were still on

Oh yeah PR and knickers - I wonder how many fetishes and deviations can one person have? It is unbelievable! And yet nobody suspected anything, he was described as "good quiet and religious boy" (mother), polite family man (friends), absolutely nonthreatening (coworkers, neighbours). I just can't wrap my mind around it! He seems to never slip living his double life. Real life Jekyll/Hyde persona. And so young.

 

[Zazie]

I was surprised how little was offered regarding forensic evidence at the trial beyond Libby's body eg from the park bench, the ruined boathouse and the steps leading down into the river - all of which had forensics teams working on them. The prosecution don't appear to have tried to offer any reconstruction of what happened within the park, not even Libby's likely entry point into the river.

I wondered whether this was because Libby was a missing person when the teams were working so the focus was too wide, maybe? But I'm still surprised they didn't find evidence of things like heavy footprints in the snow indicating someone staggering or carrying a dead weight, broken reeds by the river etc?

 

[tedtink]

Was thinking more about PR mentioning her knickers a few times, that she had taken them off. For me, this lie is calculated: he knew she had them on when he put her in the river so he could have thought that by saying that when he left her alive she didn't have her knickers on, had she ever be found with her knickers on, that would somehow explain/ be a good excuse for him that she was indeed alive when he left her and even managed to put her knickers on herself before ending up in the river. Jmo. Musing over little details that spring to mind.

Agree.

I think his lies are interwoven with some truths, fantasies, wish fulfilments and Freudian slips.
Quite elaborately strung together.
MOO

 

[sundaaaay]

I think he raped her, she ran off into the park and he went after her (not necessarily running) and she went in the river. He possibly saw this and left without helping, although I also think he could possibly have left without knowing that had happened- which is where my dilemma is.

Definitely a valid scenario but a few questions.

Witnesses heard screams in the park and others heard her shouting even before she met PR, so she was inclined to shout that night. Why did she not scream before entering ORPF?

Some people question her ability to make it to the river from outside the park because of her drunken state, she was described as being very very drunk and in a state. Also if she did choose to run into the park herself how did she avoid running into the open section and being spotted on the factory cctv overlooking part of the river bank, considering she ran in the other direction (near the playground) how did she not fall in the large pond instead?

Also if this was the case and she fell into the river accidentally, and PR knew this had happened, why wouldn’t he just admit she fell in the river and possibility admit the rape as this would have meant a lesser jail sentence than being trialled for both rape and murder.

 

[tigerowl]

I was surprised how little was offered regarding forensic evidence at the trial beyond Libby's body eg from the park bench, the ruined boathouse and the steps leading down into the river - all of which had forensics teams working on them. The prosecution don't appear to have tried to offer any reconstruction of what happened within the park, not even Libby's likely entry point into the river.

I wondered whether this was because Libby was a missing person when the teams were working so the focus was too wide, maybe? But I'm still surprised they didn't find evidence of things like heavy footprints in the snow indicating someone staggering or carrying a dead weight, broken reeds by the river etc?

This surprises me too. They must have found the CCTV really early as they were searching ORPF within 36/48 hours of Libby's disappearance so if there was anything to be found you would expect they found it.

 

[tigerowl]

Definitely a valid scenario but a few questions.

Witnesses heard screams in the park and others heard her shouting even before she met PR, so she was inclined to shout that night. Why did she not scream before entering ORPF?

Some people question her ability to make it to the river from outside the park because of her drunken state, she was described as being very very drunk and in a state. Also if she did choose to run into the park herself how did she avoid running into the open section and being spotted on the cctv overlooking the park, considering she ran in the other direction (near the playground) how did she not fall in the large pond instead?

Also if this was the case and she fell into the river accidentally, and PR knew this had happened, why wouldn’t he just admit she fell in the river and possibility admit the rape as this would have meant a lesser jail sentence than being trialled for both rape and murder.

There isn't any CCTV overlooking the park. It's either from houses near the entrances or factories overlooking the river or another part of Oak Road.

 

[sundaaaay]

There isn't any CCTV overlooking the park. It's either from houses near the entrances or factories overlooking the river or another part of Oak Road.

Sorry I meant the factory cctv overlooking the river.

 

[tigerowl]

Sorry I meant the factory cctv overlooking the river.

I think (but am not certain) that the camera covering that particular area of the river was on some kind of rotation and not fixed so possibly missed the crucial moments.

 

[Tortoise]

I was surprised how little was offered regarding forensic evidence at the trial beyond Libby's body eg from the park bench, the ruined boathouse and the steps leading down into the river - all of which had forensics teams working on them. The prosecution don't appear to have tried to offer any reconstruction of what happened within the park, not even Libby's likely entry point into the river.

I wondered whether this was because Libby was a missing person when the teams were working so the focus was too wide, maybe? But I'm still surprised they didn't find evidence of things like heavy footprints in the snow indicating someone staggering or carrying a dead weight, broken reeds by the river etc?

And yet they offered a measurement. I'm not sure how they calculated that without knowing which part of the bank Libby went in the river. I feel there was quite a bit of testimony we didn't get, for instance how the prosecutor was able to give timings in his opening speech. His words aren't evidence so presumably there was testimony.

"The jury is now being shown a map and an aerial photograph of the playing fields. It is 354.9 metres from Oak Road to the River Hull across the playing fields.

Mr Wright said: “His bedroom window was open and the screams were coming from somewhere on the playing fields, but he thought that they were a good distance away from his house that he estimated to be at least 150 metres.

After the screams had stopped the man looked out of his window and says “a few minutes after the last scream” he saw a man, who he described in his 20s “emerging from the darkness” and “running off the playing fields, away from the river behind him and heading back toward Oak Road.”

The man who heard the screams was later able to reconstruct with police where he saw what the prosecution say was the defendant at three points. These were later plotted onto an aerial image.

The jury are being shown the image.

The distance away from the man’s house that he thought the screaming was coming from was 150 metres away and in the direction of the River Hull.

Mr Wright said: “It was some time after they stopped that the defendant emerged from the darkness. At an average walking speed it might take just less than four minutes to cover all of the distance from the defendant’s car to the water.

“At a run – and we know that the defendant was running – no more than about a minute and a half or two minutes at most.”

Pawel Relowicz court updates as butcher stands trial for Libby murder

 

[sundaaaay]

I think (but am not certain) that the camera covering that particular area of the river was on some kind of rotation and not fixed so possibly missed the crucial moments.

I assumed the black area is the river

 

[CoverMeCagney]

<...>

"The jury is now being shown a map and an aerial photograph of the playing fields. It is 354.9 metres from Oak Road to the River Hull across the playing fields.

The man who heard the screams was later able to reconstruct with police where he saw what the prosecution say was the defendant at three points. These were later plotted onto an aerial image.

The jury are being shown the image.

I really wanna see that map!

 

[Loobyloo]

Majority verdict can be 10 -2 in England.
I have also seen one occasion when a verdict was going to be allowed for 9 - when there were only 9 jurors left on the case. It didn't happen as they couldn't agree.

Sorry, & thanks - I'd misread my source!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

View attachment 282967

I assumed the black area is the river

I had in my head that the arrows show the opposite side of the bank, headlights in the distance, and the river runs parallel to the top of the photo. I’d need to look properly on my laptop though, maps are a bit useless on a phone.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

And yet they offered a measurement. I'm not sure how they calculated that without knowing which part of the bank Libby went in the river. I feel there was quite a bit of testimony we didn't get, for instance how the prosecutor was able to give timings in his opening speech. His words aren't evidence so presumably there was testimony.

"The jury is now being shown a map and an aerial photograph of the playing fields. It is 354.9 metres from Oak Road to the River Hull across the playing fields.

Mr Wright said: “His bedroom window was open and the screams were coming from somewhere on the playing fields, but he thought that they were a good distance away from his house that he estimated to be at least 150 metres.

After the screams had stopped the man looked out of his window and says “a few minutes after the last scream” he saw a man, who he described in his 20s “emerging from the darkness” and “running off the playing fields, away from the river behind him and heading back toward Oak Road.”

The man who heard the screams was later able to reconstruct with police where he saw what the prosecution say was the defendant at three points. These were later plotted onto an aerial image.

The jury are being shown the image.

The distance away from the man’s house that he thought the screaming was coming from was 150 metres away and in the direction of the River Hull.

Mr Wright said: “It was some time after they stopped that the defendant emerged from the darkness. At an average walking speed it might take just less than four minutes to cover all of the distance from the defendant’s car to the water.

“At a run – and we know that the defendant was running – no more than about a minute and a half or two minutes at most.”

Pawel Relowicz court updates as butcher stands trial for Libby murder

I am curious about where SA saw PR in the park. The three points are interesting. I would think he would have shown them where he walked/ran. Like I saw him starting here to here. If that makes sands! MOO

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I am curious about where SA saw PR in the park. The three points are interesting. I would think he would have shown them where he walked/ran. Like I saw him starting here to here. If that makes sands! MOO

They’ll have had a detailed map showing the man, the camera positions, and what happened where and when. Hopefully we might get to see it one day!