VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[HLC35]

Do we know how the jury is made up, number of women and men?

It will be interesting to see if they reach a relatively prompt verdict, as opposed to several days of deliberation indicating a variance of opinion and finding it hard to reach a majority decision.

5 men 7 women

 

[JosieJo]

From what we've heard of prosecution and defence summings up.

The prosecution mention the river, weeds and banks.

The defence spend an inordinate amount of time on Libby's medical records yet appear to spend little time on this

Why? If the terrain is so easy and Libby so capable where is the long defence?

It wasn't reported ...the journalist only put ...it had been covered

 

[jamjim]

How do I set an alert as to when they've reached a verdict please?

I've looked but don't think you can. I just had to keep refreshing the page until PR's name came up. They really need to add an alert function!

 

[Financejane]

And that fools mental health experts? Particularly CAMHS? I've had to speak to them about students on many occasions - believe me they're pretty savvy.

Sadly Camhs released my daughter very quickly due to staff leave due to stress despite them fast tracking her because of suicide concerns at age 11. They saw her for a sum of 60 minutes.

 

[Catsarse]

That's true.
Depression symptoms vary and the condition ranges from very mild to severe.

But we know Libby was close to her Mum, had just spent time with her and I'm sure she would have picked up on those nuances in Libby's behavior even if she'd had said she wasn't depressed.
JMO

I don’t believe Libby committed suicide. However it’s sad to say, many many family members don’t pick up on anything-because the person about to commit suicide can often seem like they are in recovery, and/or very happy and upbeat beforehand. Sometimes because they’ve made the decision to end their lives.

Just to reiterate I don’t believe Libby committed suicide but I’d hope (and I’m sure) the jury members are deliberating in every point. Especially as the defence in their summing up really seemed to focus on Libby’s mental health.

 

[tedtink]

Sadly Camhs released my daughter very quickly due to staff leave due to stress despite them fast tracking her because of suicide concerns at age 11. They saw her for a sum of 60 minutes.

IMO Not enough funding goes into Mental Health Services full stop!
Broken arm? Straight to A and E - Fixed! No questions asked!
Not many can afford £50-150 per session for Psychotherapy and you're lucky if you get a few sessions on the NHS some 3 months after symptoms. (Not a dig at the NHS btw)
But this is another argument not for this thread, so I'll wind my neck in.
Makes me angry.

 

[LastSeenWearing]

5 men 7 women

I wonder why they don't make the jury equal and have 6 men and 6 women. And what would happen if the jury came back completely divided on all 3 verdicts murder, manslaughter and not guilty. Does it just take one person majority to accept a verdict e.g. If it was 3 not guilty, 4 manslaughter and 5 murder would it then be classed as majority murder?

 

[HLC35]

I wonder why they don't make the jury equal and have 6 men and 6 women. And what would happen if the jury came back completely divided on all 3 verdicts murder, manslaughter and not guilty. Does it just take one person majority to accept a verdict e.g. If it was 3 not guilty, 4 manslaughter and 5 murder would it then be classed as majority murder?

I believe that they have to keep returning and returning to deliberate until they reach a majority. Ie, convince the one, two or three people that have a differing opinion to change their vote. I think?

 

[Joolz1975]

I think the truth is nobody knows what Libby's state of mind was that night.

Her flat mates were obviously concerned enough that in a very short time from her not arriving home they were searching for her and the police were called so to me that hints that they had high level of concern about her safety and most people wouldnt automatically assume a 3rd party involvement within such a short time either. Maybe the concerns were just about the weather and her having had too much to drink but we cant know that.

However I dont think she committed suicide, no way. No matter how traumatised she was after the rape (if she was still alive which I dont think she was) I dont see her making her way to the river and throwing herself in.

It is upsetting that her mental health was scrutinised so much by the defence but on reflection I can see they had a job to do no matter how harsh it sounded but I personally dont feel it had any relevance other than she was in a distressed state and someone that could have helped her did the exact opposite and is responsible for her death.

 

[NorthernSoul]

I wonder why they don't make the jury equal and have 6 men and 6 women. And what would happen if the jury came back completely divided on all 3 verdicts murder, manslaughter and not guilty. Does it just take one person majority to accept a verdict e.g. If it was 3 not guilty, 4 manslaughter and 5 murder would it then be classed as majority murder?

Here is what I remember: Far more jurors than are going to be needed attend the court each day where they all sit together in a large room drinking coffee and eating biscuits! Nobody knows which trials they will be on. Then a number of jurors have their names called out to go up to the court. This number is larger than 12, maybe 20? You all troop up and then a random selection of 12 is made from the group. The rest troop back down to the waiting room. I think it is to stop any chance of a juror being planted. The defence can also request one or more jurors be replaced by a different juror I believe if they wish.

For a guilty verdict ALL 12 jurors must agree. If after a certain time, depending on the case, no verdict has been reached the judge instructs the jurors that she will accept a majority verdict of 11 or even 10. If this does not change matters there will be a retrial.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I think the truth is nobody knows what Libby's state of mind was that night.

Her flat mates were obviously concerned enough that in a very short time from her not arriving home they were searching for her and the police were called so to me that hints that they had high level of concern about her safety and most people wouldnt automatically assume a 3rd party involvement within such a short time either. Maybe the concerns were just about the weather and her having had too much to drink but we cant know that.

However I dont think she committed suicide, no way. No matter how traumatised she was after the rape (if she was still alive which I dont think she was) I dont see her making her way to the river and throwing herself in.

It is upsetting that her mental health was scrutinised so much by the defence but on reflection I can see they had a job to do no matter how harsh it sounded but I personally dont feel it had any relevance other than she was in a distressed state and someone that could have helped her did the exact opposite and is responsible for her death.

Also it somehow makes it so much worse for me that she was turning her health around and enjoying her time at Uni.

 

[LastSeenWearing]

It's not Libby's watch he fiddling with is it?
Did it fall off when they were interacting near the bus stop I wonder?
There's a tiny reflection of light that bounces off whatever he's holding at around -6.10

It could be her watch he has as it could have come off when he was trying to get her to come with him from the bus stop to his car but I cannot imagine PR either then discarded it by the roadside where it was found or he dropped it by mistake and forgot all about it. I don't think he would want any evidence left if he cleaned up on other occasions or he would maybe want to keep it as a souvenir. I think it dropped off when Libby got into the car and PR did not notice it had gone. Had he noticed he may have returned to look for it as he probably did not realise Spidercam was there to see him.

 

[Kaykedi]

Also it somehow makes it so much worse for me that she was turning her health around and enjoying her time at Uni.

I'm with you HKP. In many ways, I feel her life was just beginning

 

[tedtink]

It could be her watch he has as it could have come off when he was trying to get her to come with him from the bus stop to his car but I cannot imagine PR either then discarded it by the roadside where it was found or he dropped it by mistake and forgot all about it. I don't think he would want any evidence left if he cleaned up on other occasions or he would maybe want to keep it as a souvenir. I think it dropped off when Libby got into the car and PR did not notice it had gone. Had he noticed he may have returned to look for it as he probably did not realise Spiderman was there to see him.

He removed something from his pocket, fiddled with it, then put it back in his pocket.
Some other posters had suggested it was a condom, which I can absolutely agree with given his MO.
I don't know how condoms are wrapped, whether they have a silver reflective lining inside, that picked up the light.
I might have to buy some to find out now

 

[Vera_dci]

IMO Not enough funding goes into Mental Health Services full stop!
Broken arm? Straight to A and E - Fixed! No questions asked!
Not many can afford £50-150 per session for Psychotherapy and you're lucky if you get a few sessions on the NHS some 3 months after symptoms. (Not a dig at the NHS btw)
But this is another argument not for this thread, so I'll wind my neck in.
Makes me angry.

Absolutely spot on! Mental health services are so under funded it makes me angry too. You only have to say you are feeling a bit low and doctors are shoving anti depressants in your face , when in reality counselling or CBT therapy are proven to be much more affective long term. We treat people suffering with severe mental health problems like criminals, locking and drugging them up.

 

[Sarahlou]

I find the suggestion Libby committed suicide outrageous.

I'm hoping this man never gets out, he will always be a danger to women IMO.

 

[tedtink]

Absolutely spot on! Mental health services are so under funded it makes me angry too. You only have to say you are feeling a bit low and doctors are shoving anti depressants in your face , when in reality counselling or CBT therapy are proven to be much more affective long term. We treat people suffering with severe mental health problems like criminals, locking and drugging them up.

30p per packet for some SSRI's.

I know they have there place and can pull some sufferers out from the depths of despair, but not very good long term without other interventions like you say, IMO talking therapies have a better impact.

 

[Tortoise]

I agree with this. I actually get insulted when someone is on their 5-6 lie and for some reason believe I should actually accept their latest version as truth. I do not believe they should get the benefit of the doubt and I like your thought about negative direction from the judge. MOO

I haven't seen anyone accept that the sex was consensual.

But what you're saying, in effect, is that to believe he didn't murder her he has to admit rape.

I don't see the chances of that being very high. I think the preferred theory is that he asphyxiated Libby during the rape. Who here would really go on to accept him admitting he raped her but is sure he wasn't lying about not asphyxiating her?

 

[PitchforkRed]

Sadly Camhs released my daughter very quickly due to staff leave due to stress despite them fast tracking her because of suicide concerns at age 11. They saw her for a sum of 60 minutes.

All too common unfortunately. CAMHS and all mental health services in this country are not fit for purpose. The sole aim is to get patients discharged ASAP or bounced to another organisation/service to get them off the books. I have to fight on a daily basis to get clients the help they need. I had a client last week saying he was going to kill himself, Crisis Team bothered to get in touch with him 3 days later. My own personal experiences of accessing MH services have all consisted of an initial appointment, then discharged on the second appointment after being passed a leaflet about self-help mental health techniques. I would go as far to say (albeit tongue-in-cheek) all mental health services in the UK should be abolished, because that is the only way people would stop having the unrealistic expectation that anyone is going to help you.

 

[Skigh]

I think the truth is nobody knows what Libby's state of mind was that night.

Her flat mates were obviously concerned enough that in a very short time from her not arriving home they were searching for her and the police were called so to me that hints that they had high level of concern about her safety and most people wouldnt automatically assume a 3rd party involvement within such a short time either. Maybe the concerns were just about the weather and her having had too much to drink but we cant know that.

However I dont think she committed suicide, no way. No matter how traumatised she was after the rape (if she was still alive which I dont think she was) I dont see her making her way to the river and throwing herself in.

It is upsetting that her mental health was scrutinised so much by the defence but on reflection I can see they had a job to do no matter how harsh it sounded but I personally dont feel it had any relevance other than she was in a distressed state and someone that could have helped her did the exact opposite and is responsible for her death.

A very well written ,thoughtful yet compassionate post.