VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Newthoughts]

I’m not local to Newland @tigerowl but a friend was at the time and knew one group who he’d done something to. It was never discussed with me prior to this case, then we he got arrested they told me what had happened to their friends. Whether those friends had chatted to her prior to that I’m not sure. I lived on Vicky Dock at the time and a little older then that friend.....the rare time I went out on Newland where they lived or to a house party there I felt a bit of a granny compared to them all like you, I never saw the efit either.

I wonder for those who reported prior to Libby, were they told not to speak about it?
Also I think he’d have definitely flashed/masturbated at a lot more women and went unreported. I remember being about 13 in East Park and a few times getting flashed/masturbated at, as a group we shouted and laughed and jeered so if they were after the shock factor they didn’t get it. Now I’m a more mature lady (!) I honestly believe these type of crimes need to be taken so seriously from the off.

I also knew of one set of victims from just days before Libby disappeared because they were friends of my child.

They were definitely and very firmly told not to say anything in public before his first trial. He was implicated because their property was in his boot. They didn't see him.

I would say the fact he pleaded guilty means certain details were missing that might have come up at trial. So I wonder if that's true of his other crimes.

It didn't seem like a random lucky burglary. That's why I have no trouble accepting pre meditation, planning and forethought and I why I don't think his behaviour is impulsive.

 

[Newthoughts]

The problem I have with this is about PR cracking on with his evening after murdering her. I would have thought someone who has just committed their first murder would be in a state of shock and would rush home asap and lie low for quite some time worried sick about being caught not go straight out in the street masturbating and looking for more women.

I think

A rape can't ever be consensual!! But no I do not believe the sex was consensual Libby was far too drunk to give consent. I would have thought someone who has just committed murder would not be able to drive off in the calm manner he did (even as a poster mentioned indicating) and instead of getting home and hiding and pacing around trembling thinking what have I done goes out driving round the streets and walking seen on cctv. I would not think this the usual behaviour for any murderer!

I think he wouldn't care if he felt safe.

If he'd just raped and left her wouldn't feel safe. Then he'd stay at home.

Clearly he does feel safe.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

A rape can't ever be consensual!!

RSBM

Of course not. But I cant bring myself to describe that encounter as anything else.

 

[Miss_French]

I know my fact checking didn't go down too well last time, but since there is this weekend while waiting for the verdict, I suppose I can do some belated calculations here. Take it as you will, FYI.....

According to this site, the average running pace for a man between 20-24 years, is about 9:30 minutes per mile
View attachment 282815
The average walking pace on country footpaths according to this site (no distinction among sexes or ages), is about 12 minutes per km.
View attachment 282820
There are other averages if you are interested.

Using a pace calculator at this other site, if assuming someone walks at a country path pace for 350m, the time needed is a little over 4 minutes
View attachment 282821

If assuming someone runs at a young man's average pace for 350m, the time needed is a bit over 2 minutes
View attachment 282849
Links:
Learn Your Pace With Our Running Pace Calculator
Walks and treks FAQs

But the calculation of average running pace (first pic) comes from data from a fitness app and the people who download that are going to be taking things seriously; it also gives no indication of incline and terrain so it's we don't know if it's comparing like-for-like runners, eg street v cross-country. It's not average running pace for the population as a whole and not someone in a coat, jeans and whatever footwear PR was wearing.

 

[Newthoughts]

But the calculation of average running pace (first pic) comes from data from a fitness app and the people who download that are going to be taking things seriously; it also gives no indication of incline and terrain so it's we don't know if it's comparing like-for-like runners, eg street v cross-country. It's not average running pace for the population as a whole and not someone in a coat, jeans and whatever footwear PR was wearing.

His first story to police was that he was parked in Haworth ready to go running in the uni grounds and was about to stretch. I think he was wearing trainers

With a Sainsburys on Beverley road it's probably not the excuse I'd have come up with.

Lots of people download fitness apps to become fit not because they already are.

Edited to add extra fact about fitness apps.

 

[mrjitty]

MrJitty may be able to clarify if I'm right on this, and rather more succinctly...

"Can the jury consider a scenario favourable to the defendant that the defence hasn't put before them tho?"

I'm sorry to say and I am not sure I agree with it but I think it's almost inevitable they can.

I had a stab at answering this upthread - but the short version is the jury, having identified all the facts that have been proven, needs to ask if it can be inferred that PR took some direct action to put Libby in the river

So they must not speculate away individual facts but if they can't be sure he did that because there are other reasonable possibilities, then it is not murder, even where the accused did not plead it. This is what the defence counsel/judge were getting at when they said that his lying does not inevitably mean he did the murder of itself.

It'd be totally different in a civil case. The judgment there would be on the pleadings, the documents by which the parties set out clearly the details they rely upon. They wouldn't get far trying to plead alternative versions of what it was they'd done. Moreso the judge will only base his decision on the arguments. Generally if they haven't argued it he won't consider it even if he's thought of it and he would make a different decision if they had.

"Wouldn't that leave the system open to all sorts of abuse because you could then imagine any scenario within the park that PR hadn't thought of and neither has his defence?"

I'm not sure that follows.

What is open to abuse is the defence knowing what the prosecution case is ahead of trial and them not knowing his, and him hearing their witnesses in court before he gives his evidence...thus enabling him to fabricate his to his advantage.

This is why I was posting about adverse inferences from the Judge/Prosecution

Normally right to silence is absolute. Prosecution can't comment on it and the Judge will specifically warn the jury not to infer anything from no comment answers.

I did a bit more research on police interviews and this is apparently why the suspect assisted by counsel, will read in a prepared statement, and then no comment all the questions. It protects his right to silence later at trial, by commenting things that should be reasonably disclosed.

So hypothetical example - if PR's defence was that he was working as a taxi driver that night - that is something that should be read in - as to why he was in the area. So police can investigate - e.g app use etc - otherwise he can just ambush the prosecution with a fabricated version at trial.

"Surely doubt has to be reasonable and bound by what you've been told?"

Reasonable yes, bound by what you've been told I think no. And there I think we have the nub of the problem in this case.

This is a bugbear of mine and probably why I have way too many posts on it.

BARD standard merely reflects the overall burden of proof on the prosecution.

So in the present case, the jury should review all the circumstantial evidence and ask what can be inferred from it. So IMO, you can infer:

1. Libby was the person screaming in the park
2. PR was the man seen walking out of the park
3. PR raped Libby in the park
4. Libby ended up in the water directly because of the actions of PR
5. PR intended libby to go in the water
6. PR displayed guilty knowledge Libby wouldn't be turning up

= Murder

Only at this point do we ask, is there any other reasonable
possibility and this is where I hesitate a bit.

What tends to happen IMO, is that people tend to henpeck individual facts to BARD standard - that is not allowed. So we shouldn't speculate into existence a mysterious stranger who was "the real killer"

My 02c

 

[NorthernSoul]

I don’t think anyone is saying they’re safe after their first murder and they won’t do it again. I do completely agree with what they’re saying, his behaviour seems like he really hasn’t caused or believes he’s caused a death.
In fact the longer I’m on here the more I’m changing my views
I’m starting to wonder was Libby passed out/very near passed out to the point he had sex with her (of course rape) but he’s sold it to himself that it’s ok?
Has she scratched him or started to struggle to the point he smothers her, making her unconscious and he finished having sex (so sorry to be graphic) and then left her on oak road or in the park?

Of course all my own musings but in this scenario I can see why he’d go back to orpf to see if she was there and then go back out in the prowl to masturbate-does he think she’s walked off and hopes he’s got away with raping her?
I’m just very surprised if he raped and killed Libby, and either put her in the river immediately or on visit no 3, that he’d also then go out prowling and wanking. It does make me wonder if he believed himself Libby was still alive at that point?

All moo imo

This is pretty much what I think could be possible too. And that he went back because after he left Libby the more he thought about it he had to know whether she was still there wandering around or laying on the ground or whether it looked as though she had gone home and hopefully might not even remember what happened or if she did wouldn't report it, leaving him off the hook. Locked up his car and took a quick look around the park to make sure she wasn't in there somewhere. Then, feeling reassured, headed off back up to the streets.

 

[mrjitty]

If assuming someone runs at a young man's average pace for 350m, the time needed is a bit over 2 minutes
View attachment 282849
Links:
Learn Your Pace With Our Running Pace Calculator
Walks and treks FAQs

Very helpful thanks - i agree

My average pace over 1k jogging is 4.30 but I am in my late 40s - so i agree with this

If I am sprinting over a shorter distance, the pace is much quicker than that of course. My main concern is how long it would take him to get Libby to the water - but as a young man, I think he could get back in well under 2mins easy

I think people overestimate the rape time - its often a blitz attack

I do wonder to what extent that could determine potential blows to libby - we don't have the photos (thank goodness)

 

[Via Marple]

But the calculation of average running pace (first pic) comes from data from a fitness app and the people who download that are going to be taking things seriously; it also gives no indication of incline and terrain so it's we don't know if it's comparing like-for-like runners, eg street v cross-country. It's not average running pace for the population as a whole and not someone in a coat, jeans and whatever footwear PR was wearing.

No. Averages are called averages for a reason. They are not to determine any individual run on any particular day. Only used for ballparks.

 

[tigerowl]

Very helpful thanks - i agree

My average pace over 1k jogging is 4.30 but I am in my late 40s - so i agree with this

If I am sprinting over a shorter distance, the pace is much quicker than that of course. My main concern is how long it would take him to get Libby to the water - but as a young man, I think he could get back in well under 2mins easy

I think people overestimate the rape time - its often a blitz attack

I do wonder to what extent that could determine potential blows to libby - we don't have the photos (thank goodness)

Do you mean he could get there and back in well under 2 mins or just back from the river to the car in under 2 mins?

 

[Miss_French]

No. Averages are called averages for a reason. They are not to determine any individual run on any particular day. Only used for ballparks.

But they aren't averages for someone wearing normal clothes and trying to run in the circumstances that PR could be if he was leaving the park.

 

[Scorpiette]

Have you changed your mind?
Not sure if this is the correct way to link it?
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/amended-poll-uk-libby-squire.558397/

Gosh, I've changed my vote 4 times now due to excellent posts covering different viewpoints! I'd be a nightmare on a jury. My 4th vote is the same as my original vote, often your first decision is the right one.

 

[NorthernSoul]

Gosh, I've changed my vote 4 times now due to excellent posts covering different viewpoints! I'd be a nightmare on a jury. My 4th vote is the same as my original vote, often your first decision is the right one.

I have changed mine as well!

 

[Alyce]

No - in England it has to be 11 out of the 12 (or 10 out of 11 if one juror has had to drop out) for a majority verdict.

(ETA that this is the English system - Scotland has 15 on a jury & allows a simple majority, 8-7)

Majority verdict can be 10 -2 in England.
I have also seen one occasion when a verdict was going to be allowed for 9 - when there were only 9 jurors left on the case. It didn't happen as they couldn't agree.

 

[LastSeenWearing]

Gosh, I've changed my vote 4 times now due to excellent posts covering different viewpoints! I'd be a nightmare on a jury. My 4th vote is the same as my original vote, often your first decision is the right one.

That's exactly how I am. There are so many good points made on here which makes me really think differently at different times. I have not made my final decision yet and like the jury am still thinking over everything.

 

[Tortoise]

BARD standard merely reflects the overall burden of proof on the prosecution.

So in the present case, the jury should review all the circumstantial evidence and ask what can be inferred from it. So IMO, you can infer:

1. Libby was the person screaming in the park
2. PR was the man seen walking out of the park
3. PR raped Libby in the park
4. Libby ended up in the water directly because of the actions of PR
5. PR intended libby to go in the water
6. PR displayed guilty knowledge Libby wouldn't be turning up

= Murder

Only at this point do we ask, is there any other reasonable
possibility and this is where I hesitate a bit.

What tends to happen IMO, is that people tend to henpeck individual facts to BARD standard - that is not allowed. So we shouldn't speculate into existence a mysterious stranger who was "the real killer"

My 02c

rsbm

I appreciate this is your opinion mrJ, but I take issue with your inferences for any circumstantial evidence of 4, 5 & 6.

It ends at rape for me.

For instance, cleaning his car. He might clean his car if the victim is going to say she was taken in it to be raped.

My interpretation of the knickers story is that he was setting a story for being accused, which is unlikely if he thought the river would take her away and wash away the evidence, and he knows she was no longer alive to say where she entered the river and who she was with.

I don't see what evidence you are seeing for 4 & 5. That's where I get stuck - the possibilities seem to have equal weight.

IMO.

 

[Catsarse]

That's exactly how I am. There are so many good points made on here which makes me really think differently at different times. I have not made my final decision yet and like the jury am still thinking over everything.

I’m changing my mind too. If I take out some of the emotion here, I have to admit if I was on the jury there’d be an element of doubt for me. Especially after discussing different scenarios with you all and the defence evidence and witnesses.

No matter what I’d want to believe, I’d have to separate that from what is being presented. Right now, could I be satisfied that I’m 100% sure he raped and murdered her? No I couldn’t be (I was!). Manslaughter I can see but I couldn’t be sat on that jury and say I’m 100% sure he murdered her.

Ive really appreciated everyone’s viewpoints and debates on here, it’s so interesting to see everyone’s differing opinions. It must be so difficult being a jury member on a case like this where there’s not one definite line of actions that’s lead to a persons death.

 

[tigerowl]

My boyfriend and I were debating what we would do on a jury in a case such as this.

I really cannot see any evidence for murder or manslaughter so I would not want to say guilty. However, he is an awful speciman who is clearly a danger to women so do I say guilty as an opportunity to keep him off the streets as long as possible even though I don't believe it.

It's so difficult to balance what you feel is a moral obligation against what would be right in the eyes of the law.

 

[Tortoise]

Majority verdict can be 10 -2 in England.
I have also seen one occasion when a verdict was going to be allowed for 9 - when there were only 9 jurors left on the case. It didn't happen as they couldn't agree.

The jury I was on we were told the judge could go to 9 because some of the jurors had other commitments the judge had already agreed to, but we completed deliberations while we were all still there so it wasn't necessary.

 

[Sarahjo]

To me if he had left her alive after raping her he would be more worried because he could expect that she maybe phone the police and they could be there looking for evidence.

The fact he was brazen enough to go back a 3rd time after raping her leads me to think that he knew she was dead and in the river and unlikely to be found anytime soon.

I think he went back to check she body had moved from where he put her in or to retrieve something he lost.

It’s might not be brazen but more stupid...... anyway if the police had been called and were there I would expect them to be parked right at the top of beresford as it enters oak road, I doubt they would travel along to the green shed and park so this would make them easily visible if you were to turn into beresford, you would see them and would then be able to cut off to one of the other streets and get out of there sharpish.. just a thought...