VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Sooty]

Regarding manslaughter...would it not be because he took her to a more isolated place?

If he had raped and left her where he found her perhaps not manslaughter...but because the rape relies on him knowing she could not consent due to her condition.. then surely it follows that he took her to an even more dangerous area to commit the crime?

My interpretation of the law is that unless she died as a direct result due to injuries sustained during the attack, then no, it wouldn’t be manslaughter.

I think if the injuries were caused during the course of the attack even if not directly by his hand, then that would constitute manslaughter also. If, for example, the rape took place on the bank of the river and she fell in whilst defending herself and drowned.

I am thinking that once he has left the scene, unless she is suffering from injuries caused during the attack at that moment, manslaughter cannot be applied.

but I do accept that I could be completely wrong and I would be grateful for someone to put me right!

 

[JosieJo]

Just trying to think of it in different ways ..say a friend dropped my drunk daughter by a bus stop on a busy road and something awful happened ...compared to how I'd feel if a friend dropped my drunk daughter in a dark lane with no houses

 

[Ruthbullock]

Yes possibly..I was just thinking ..with your example she could have got run over with or without rape ...so I would say not manslaughter...but because he moved her to carry out the rape she encountered a river that she would not have done ? Not sure ..also for example leaving her in a street he could have reasonably thought she would bee seen or be able to flag a bus etc
But by taking her to a remote spot it's reasonable to think he left her far more vulnerable so caused her death ..I think

This is where locals need to play in and add their take on it- I thought it was remote, to the rear of houses and at the end of a remote lane (hence why I would head through the gate, as the alternatives were even less appealing), however others have said she could knock at front doors for help- so not a remote location- I dont know and I hope someone who lives nearby can add more information.

 

[NorthernSoul]

I think in the scenario where PR is chasing Libby in the park and she goes into the river that this would be manslaughter. However, if he had left and Libby had fallen in some time after he had gone either running screaming or just disoriented then I don't think it would? This is why the timing of the screams is very important.

 

[JosieJo]

This is where locals need to play in and add their take on it- I thought it was remote, to the rear of houses and at the end of a remote lane (hence why I would head through the gate, as the alternatives were even less appealing), however others have said she could knock at front doors for help- so not a remote location- I dont know and I hope someone who lives nearby can add more information.

Yes I agree ...I dont think there are front doors

 

[Newthoughts]

I've just been reading up on the CPS legal guidance on unlawful act manslaughter. [ Homicide: Murder and Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service ]

Relevant parts (IMO):

"The offence is made out if it is proved that the accused intentionally did an unlawful and dangerous act from which death inadvertently resulted.

An objective test must be applied to the question as to whether an accused's unlawful act, from which death results, was dangerous - DPP v Newbury (Neil) [1977] Crim. L.R. 359. In judging whether the act was dangerous the test is not did the accused recognise that it was dangerous but would all sober and reasonable people recognise its danger. The jury has to decide whether D's unlawful act exposed V to the risk of "some' harm - Church [1966] 1 QB 59; R v JM and SM [2012] EWCA Crim 2293.

Unlawful act manslaughter requires proof that the defendant committed a relevant crime, with the mens rea for that crime. The unlawful act must therefore be criminal in nature and must also be dangerous - R v Larkin [1943] KB 174.

The prosecution must establish that the unlawful act was a cause of the death without an intervening act to break the chain of causation – R v Lewis [2010] EWCA Crim 151 "

"Offences which are criminal only because of the negligent manner of their commission cannot be relied on to prove unlawful act manslaughter - Andrews v DPP [1937] A.C. 576)."


The unlawful act was rape - I don't see the inherent danger to life. Maybe I'm looking at it too literally. I think that danger would be the act of asphyxiation, the prosecution's case, which would be murder.

MOO

I think I'd have to disagree about rape not posing an inherent danger to life. The act of a much stronger person overpowering a much weaker always carries risks. Especially the act of silencing them which would risk asphyxiation. And murder allows that they cannot rely on the victims behaviour increasing that risk eg by fighting back and increasing the violence needed or running away


Also there is the location. He could have attacked in the Endsleigh Centre - a lot of stranger rapes happen where the woman is first attacked.

Or put her in the back seat of his car and attacked her anywhere then threw her out. Why there?

 

[Ruthbullock]

I think I'd have to disagree about rape not posing an inherent danger to life. The act of a much stronger person overpowering a much weaker always carries risks. Especially the act of silencing them which would risk asphyxiation.


Also there is the location. He could have attacked in the Endsleigh Centre - a lot of stranger rapes happen where the woman is first attacked.

Or put her in the back seat of his car and attacked her anywhere then threw her out. Why there?

Exactly why there? The endsleigh centre was out of the public and CCTV view, yes there was a footpath through- but I’m fairly confident the grounds would have offered some darkness, but that didn’t happen. The car, that didn’t happen? Why out of all the secluded areas and ten foots that were much closer- personally I have no idea, do you?
Let’s not forget he had been stalking and watching people out of view in that specific area for the last few years- I’m sure he knew many locations that were hidden from view, sadly locations where he was hidden but could watch others as well

 

[JosieJo]

Exactly why there? The endsleigh centre was out of the public and CCTV view, yes there was a footpath through- but I’m fairly confident the grounds would have offered some darkness, but that didn’t happen. The car, that didn’t happen? Why out of all the secluded areas and ten foots that were much closer- personally I have no idea, do you?
Let’s not forget he had been stalking and watching people out of view in that specific area for the last few years- I’m sure he knew many locations that were hidden from view, sadly locations where he was hidden but could watch others as well

I would imagine he thought there would be far less chance of being caught in oak rd than the Endsleigh centre

 

[JosieJo]

This is where locals need to play in and add their take on it- I thought it was remote, to the rear of houses and at the end of a remote lane (hence why I would head through the gate, as the alternatives were even less appealing), however others have said she could knock at front doors for help- so not a remote location- I dont know and I hope someone who lives nearby can add more information.

These were her two choices other than go into the park

 

[Sooty]

Regarding manslaughter I found this an interesting read


Manslaughter explained – Sentencing

 

[Ruthbullock]

These were her two choices other than go into the park
View attachment 282884 View attachment 282885

So where is the row of houses that caught the car in cctv?

 

[Newthoughts]

I would imagine he thought there would be far less chance of being caught in oak rd than the Endsleigh centre

That's premeditation. He didn't act on impulse he took her elsewhere. All opportunities to change his mind

 

[Ruthbullock]

That's premeditation. He didn't act on impulse he took her elsewhere. All opportunities to change his mind

Did he take her there to murder her though- that’s premeditation (and with regards murder)?

 

[Newthoughts]

I would imagine he thought there would be far less chance of being caught in oak rd than the Endsleigh centre

That's premeditation. He didn't act on impulse he took her elsewhere. All opportunities to change his mind

Pre meditation. He took her elsewhere. He did not act on impulse. All opportunities to change his mind.

Like the people that killed PC Harper. They had a chance to change their minds and run for it.

 

[Tortoise]

I think I'd have to disagree about rape not posing an inherent danger to life. The act of a much stronger person overpowering a much weaker always carries risks. Especially the act of silencing them which would risk asphyxiation. And murder allows that they cannot rely on the victims behaviour increasing that risk eg by fighting back and increasing the violence needed or running away


Also there is the location. He could have attacked in the Endsleigh Centre - a lot of stranger rapes happen where the woman is first attacked.

Or put her in the back seat of his car and attacked her anywhere then threw her out. Why there?

She had no injuries from the rape - that caused death. I included the act of asphyxiation as the dangerous act, unless you believe that could or would be manslaughter?

Why the park - I suspect it's less likely to be seen or attract public intervention. MOO

 

[Cherwell]

If it's true that he stopped the car near the green shed, it's close to the corner of Beresford Avenue so if she went that way she would soon have seen houses. If it was right at the end of Oak Road by the open gate into the park, then she might not have been aware of the houses as they are quite a distance away, beyond the tenfoot and their gardens. At that time of night there might not be many lights showing from windows.

 

[JosieJo]

Pre meditation. He took her elsewhere. He did not act on impulse. All opportunities to change his mind.

Like the people that killed PC Harper. They had a chance to change their minds and run for it.

Premeditation for rape yes ...no way of knowing regarding murder

 

[Ruthbullock]

Regarding manslaughter I found this an interesting read.

Manslaughter explained – Sentencing

If I had to categorise I would as unlawful act manslaughter

 

[tigerowl]

Ensleigh has been turned into flats. I'm not 100% sure if they were still in development or if they were inhabitated at the time this happened. So risk of people hearing him and coming out to investigate if they were living there but also literally beside Bev Road path and high chance of close proximity passers by too.

The part of ORPF he took her is close to the back of houses but they are not right beside it and also have back gardens so doors not instantly accessible. She would have had to go up the road (which is more like a track or tenfoot at that point and quite desolate looking) and round to the front to get to peoples doors or a well lit residential area - but she may not have known this. Although it's very close to her house, unless you were going to the park, or she had friends nearer that end she'd have no call to go there. It's more family homes than student houses.

One thing I often think is that if Libby did give him her address it would have played perfectly for him as it could look like he was driving her there and just missed the turning. Therefore not really alarming her too much until he got to Oak Road. If he had already planned to take his victim there she unwittingly played right into his hands.

 

[NottReds50]

If it's true that he stopped the car near the green shed, it's close to the corner of Beresford Road so if she went that way she would soon have seen houses. If it was right at the end of Oak Road by the open gate into the park, then she might not have been aware of the houses as they are quite a distance away, beyond the tenfoot and their gardens. At that time of night there might not be many lights showing from windows.