VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Sooty]

Another little detail I am trying to understand. Someone should have unbuckled Libby's seatbelt because as we saw in cctv (right?) PR buckled her seatbelt when she got in his car. Was Libby capable of unbuckling her seatbelt when they arrived? I think that must have been hard for her in the state she was in. So i don't think it is likely Libby stormed out of his car. Which could bring us to the scenario she was incapable of storming out... what happened then?

From the cctv it appears to me that it took around 30 seconds for them both to exit the car at ORPF. So it is possible she struggled to get out quickly yes. Although releasing a seatbelt is far easier than doing one up in my experience, and requires far less co ordination. MOO

 

[JosieJo]

Another little detail I am trying to understand. Someone should have unbuckled Libby's seatbelt because as we saw in cctv (right?) PR buckled her seatbelt when she got in his car. Was Libby capable of unbuckling her seatbelt when they arrived? I think that must have been hard for her in the state she was in. So i don't think it is likely Libby stormed out of his car. Which could bring us to the scenario she was incapable of storming out... what happened then?

Did he not say they pulled over because she felt sick ..."in theory" you would unbuckle someone's belt quickly for them if you thought they were going to be sick in your car

 

[JosieJo]

DBM due to quote error

 

[C.greek]

There is no evidence he was a calculating rapist ...its not even the prosecution case he was planning to rape
He saw libby and it was opportunist ...yes he would be planning to have sex with her when he got her to Oak rd so a short degree of planning..but imo I doubt very much he had much time to think about where to put a body ....in fact imo ..if he did kill her ..it would have not been planned but as a consequence of silencing her ...still murder yes ...but imo no elaborate planning...

Is this related to my post?

 

[JosieJo]

Is this related to my post?

Appologies no it linked on from my other reply to you ...Will edit

 

[Sarahjo]

If he is found guilty and he actually did murder her, do you think we’ll get a confession in the hope he’ll get a more lenient sentence or will he keep denying?
I think Aaron Campbell finally admitted it after he was found guilty in the hope it would help at sentencing?

 

[Tortoise]

Who knows at the start but taking her there shows thinking ahead. That's pre meditation to commit an act of harm that could result in death.

I do think that if you were just going to rape go into Endsleigh Centre. Your victim is going to be found with DNA wherever it happens.

He went straight to the park with no hesitation. No last minute indicating. None of the stuff you see when you're driving behind that hasn't a clue

The darts players spent 10 minutes trying to get Libby's address.

She'd been literally sitting opposite the entrance to Beresford road yet set off towards Wellesley in her attempt to get home. So it doesn't appear to have been her first choice route. Why would that suddenly change in PRs car?

Why not put her in the back seat of the car, just drive somewhere and attack. If she's going to report you DNA is going to be found anyway

Perhaps he was going to rape her at Endsleigh but something happened to stop him. People were about. Libby was very vocal around that time.

Perhaps there was stuff on the backseat of the car, like a child seat.

The prosecution's case is -

"“The defendant was well familiar with that remote spot and no doubt chose it so that he would not be disturbed.”

"He was extremely familiar with that area. It is a well known area to him to be quiet, poorly lit and remote."

Pawel Relowicz court updates as butcher stands trial for Libby murder

I think the rape was premeditated after he encountered Libby. He couldn't expect anyone, IMO, other than a girl asking for help to get somewhere, to get in his car quietly, in a fairly busy spot.

 

[elliefant]

If he is found guilty and he actually did murder her, do you think we’ll get a confession in the hope he’ll get a more lenient sentence or will he keep denying?
I think Aaron Campbell finally admitted it after he was found guilty in the hope it would help at sentencing?

I don’t think he has it in him to stop lying tbh

 

[Tortoise]

Fleeing from danger is included in murder. The suspect can't expect to victim not to react and death result from that reaction.

The experts have said she'd have struggled to run away. She's drunk and hypothermic. She's not going to get from him easily.

She'd not going to get to the river easily. In her state every small obstacle - inclines up to it, weeds, mud - is going to be major to her. Not him

You have to account for physical and cognitive differences at that point. Large bulky sober male - reactions improved by adrenaline. Vulnerable drunk hypothermic female reactions slowed by alcohol and hypothermia

This argument about the inaccessibility of the river all adds up to him, or a jury, not thinking she will come to harm by him leaving her there and getting in the river by herself. IMO

 

[Vermont24]

So where is the row of houses that caught the car in cctv?

No idea, I thought it was close by, but the pictures shared from google earth indicate otherwise

]No idea, I thought it was close by, but the pictures shared form google earth indicate otherwise

Its one of the houses that the gardens back on to Oak rd i believe..about half way down i think ...there have been photos pinpointing it but I can't find them[/QUOTE]

Just catching up. I can see there's been a bit more discussion about the CCTV footage over the last few pages. Here's the link to my earlier post explaining the position of the domestic cameras ('CAM01' and 'CAM02') for anyone who is confused:

UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

They show Oak Road, from a position at the rear of a house on Claremont Avenue. I'm happy to clarify further if anyone has questions.

 

[Pinkizzy]

I tried to reply to Newthoughts' post but something went wrong.

My reply - Pawel was seen near the park on the day or a few days before Libby's murder. He had planned to go there with someone, sometime in the future.

 

[Cherwell]

Thanks, Vermont. So it does look like he parked right at the end by the park gate.
In which case I think he lied about the green shed, and it seems more likely that he took Libby into the park.
She won't have been thinking rationally, and things may have been a blur to her. He may have spun her a line about going to a party or similar. I think someone suggested that earlier.

 

[Tortoise]

I think if the conviction is manslaughter there will be an appeal and it might have a good chance of succeeding.

The prosecution's case for murder is PR asphyxiated Libby. This is not, imo, compatible with manslaughter.

If we go down the manslaughter route with no asphyxiation wouldn't the prosecution have made that a scenario for deliberation, and not leave it to the judge to give very short directions because it hasn't been explained to them as a scenario before her summing up?

IMO we get into a lot of difficulty with PR expecting Libby to come to harm on her own after raping her and leaving her in the same state (in terms of drunknenness and hypothermia - not state of mind) he found her in, albeit in a different location.

There is the alleged difficulty in getting into the river.

Did he in fact increase her vulnerability by leaving her near a river?

By questioning PR on Libby's vulnerability I suspect the prosecutor was trying to enhance the seriousness of the rape for sentencing purposes. But I don't think it was to push them towards a manslaughter verdict.

The prosecutor even said this to PR -

"Mr Wright asked: “That girl was wearing a mini skirt as she was sitting on the pavement shivering in that weather - is that right?

“That girl crying, shivering, cold, was injured because she had a cut to her knee, is that right?

“That girl, according to you, was so drunk she was almost walking out into the traffic on the road, is that right?”

Pawel Relowicz returns to witness stand as week two of trial ends


I go back to the judge's summing up -

Manslaughter verdict an option
Justice Lambert has told the jury it has occurred to her manslaughter is an option for the verdict but it has not been explained.

She said: “There is no count of manslaughter on the indictment but it can be returned as an alternative verdict to murder.

“That would arise if you were sure Pawel Relowicz assaulted Libby Squire and it caused her death in the sense it made one or more contributions to her death and whether he intended it to.

"If the answer is no, the verdict will be not guilty of murder but you should consider whether that person intended to cause some harm and then if you are sure of that you will return a guilty verdict of manslaughter."

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury consider verdict

I submit there might be a bit missing from the reporting before she says "if the answer is no" - along the lines of 'are you sure Libby was asphyxiated by the defendant?'

I think it's clear that PR's intention is key in deciding manslaughter, and it would be hard to say he intended Libby to stray into the river.

Unless they are confident he pursued her there, or carried her there, which would be murder, IMO. I don't see manslaughter sticking in this case.

MOO

 

[NottReds50]

Thanks, Vermont. So it does look like he parked right at the end by the park gate.
In which case I think he lied about the green shed, and it seems more likely that he took Libby into the park.
She won't have been thinking rationally, and things may have been a blur to her. He may have spun her a line about going to a party or similar. I think someone suggested that earlier.

I agree, or passed out? Hence the lack of reported noise from there? That gate looks like a kind of kissing gate - could she have navigated that herself? I don't know.

 

[Vermont24]

I agree, or passed out? Hence the lack of reported noise from there? That gate looks like a kind of kissing gate - could she have navigated that herself? I don't know.

That's right. I'm heading that way shortly for my daily walk, so I'll take a picture or two.

 

[NorthernSoul]

I am a bit confused. You go with the 'very unlikely' scenario?

No I am going with, "There are numerous credible possibilities and I cannot know which one of them actually happened; therefore I don't have enough evidence for a conviction."

 

[Ruthbullock]

DBM

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks, Vermont. So it does look like he parked right at the end by the park gate.
In which case I think he lied about the green shed, and it seems more likely that he took Libby into the park.
She won't have been thinking rationally, and things may have been a blur to her. He may have spun her a line about going to a party or similar. I think someone suggested that earlier.

I think the most realistic scenario is he had his hand over her mouth and pulled her into the park, causing the lacerations inside her mouth.

About 4-5 minutes in, with a non-compliant but defenceless Libby, 12:15/16 when SA heard the first scream, they are sufficiently inside the park (150 metres per SA?) for him to rape her and his hand is off her mouth because he's got his jeans and her clothing to concentrate on. (sorry for graphic details)

MOO

 

[NottReds50]

Sorry if I've missed this, I haven't been following the minutiae details of this, but do we know where he parked for the 3rd visit? (or did he not park up?). What I'm getting at is that if he did, he'd know the exact path they followed into the park and do whatever he needed to do without having to wander about looking.

If he didn't park up - please ignore my musing!

 

[Vermont24]

Just catching up. I can see there's been a bit more discussion about the CCTV footage over the last few pages. Here's the link to my earlier post explaining the position of the domestic cameras ('CAM01' and 'CAM02') for anyone who is confused:

UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

They show Oak Road, from a position at the rear of a house on Claremont Avenue. I'm happy to clarify further if anyone has questions.

Quotes don't seem to be behaving quite right this morning. Here's the location of the green shed (green hoop) relative to the position of the cams (red circles) and PR's probable parking spot (red hoop).

Wider context: