VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Cherwell]

If you consider how long he was in the witness box and compare that with what's reported in this article I think the headline is a considerable exaggeration. Plus it's not hard to think of loads there's of stuff not reported here that he must have been asked about. He's meant to be getting a severe grilling. It can't have been this easy.

I agree, but I suppose everything went through the interpreter, so it must all have taken longer than usual.

 

[Newthoughts]

"You don't need to look like "superman....."

I agree.
Just because he didn't look big , means his body composition was mainly muscle, which we know is heavier than fat.
14 stones seems about right for a someone who carry's a good proportion of muscle to fat ratio.
Also just because he didn't look particularly muscular in the pics, doesn't mean he wasn't as strong as an ox.
For instance being female, of athletic build, not a very high ratio of muscle, I'm also very 'strong' physically.
Do we know how tall he is?

I agree and would like to add that sadly thousands women are overpowered and raped by men. Many of those women are fit, healthy and sober. Libby wasn't.

A good few years back a woman was attacked leaving the train station near us on her way home from work. I would reasonably assume from that fact that she was sober and alert. Dragged off the path and raped. The guy that did it looked like a scrawny wet rag.

Libby was drunk and hypothermic. He had a physical job. He was 14 stone but didn't look fat. Did look stocky. I agree with you.on possible muscle to fat ratio. He spent a lot of time walking around the streets so no couch potato.

I that the physical power imbalance is very marked here.

There is also a difference in reaction time. It's very reasonable to assume he was sober and aware of what was happening. Libby was the opposite. Even sober she'd have to have been reacting to events. In her state she'd be way behind him.

 

[Sooty]

I agree and would like to add that sadly thousands women are overpowered and raped by men. Many of those women are fit, healthy and sober. Libby wasn't.

A good few years back a woman was attacked leaving the train station near us on her way home from work. I would reasonably assume from that fact that she was sober and alert. Dragged off the path and raped. The guy that did it looked like a scrawny wet rag.

Libby was drunk and hypothermic. He had a physical job. He was 14 stone but didn't look fat. Did look stocky. I agree with you.on possible muscle to fat ratio. He spent a lot of time walking around the streets so no couch potato.

I that the physical power imbalance is very marked here.

There is also a difference in reaction time. It's very reasonable to assume he was sober and aware of what was happening. Libby was the opposite. Even sober she'd have to have been reacting to events. In her state she'd be way behind him.

I don’t think anyone is doubting that he wasn’t able to overpower her and rape her though. I think we are all likely in agreement on that.

 

[Newthoughts]

I don’t think anyone is doubting that he wasn’t able to overpower her and rape her though. I think we are all likely in agreement on that.

I wasn't actually disagreeing with @tedtink I was merely adding to the comment?

 

[Steve2021]

The area next to the boatshed has good access, with slightly less of an incline, to the river and is concealed by the trees which surround the pond. Essentially, this is the most remote area of the park. The area of the river bank that this path leads to also seems to be just beyond the view of the Mauri CCTV cameras (or at least the footage we've seen).

Thanks very much for all the effort in taking all these photos.

I've been pretty dismissive from the outset of a. Libby finding her own way from the road to the river, b. suicide. But I haven't thought much about her falling into it, until now. I'm in no position to contradict tales from those who know the river and I get it's tidal, and dangerous if you're in it, and that people fall into rivers when drunk and walking next to them, but I'm rather sceptical Libby would whilst wandering lonely around the park simply walk up to it and fall in. Its not obvious to me that it's that plausible... wouldn't she have seen it in good time not to bother going on closer to it?

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Thanks just found what he said on the stand.

Mr Saxby asked whether Libby did anything that would suggest to Relowicz she liked him sexually to which he has replied “no".

Oak Road playing fields
Relowicz said he stopped the car as Libby "started making sounds like she wanted to vomit."

He said: “Once I stopped she undid her seatbelt and ran off from the car. She went about two metres [towards Oak Road] and there she fell to the ground.

“I got out of the car and approached her and helped her to get up. She was making a sound as if she would be sick. I helped her by way of grabbing hold of both of her arms and she got up. She was facing me.

So correct me if I’m wrong but is he saying he didn’t park on Oak Rd where we all think he parked.
From CCTV footage, picture and google maps it looks about right to me. IMO

PR stated Libby ran two meters. Would she run away to vomit? Or run away to her away from him? I have never been so drunk I had to throw up, but I know people who have and one did not even make it out of my car, which was a very frustrating moment for me!! I would imagine if someone thought they were going to vomit, there would not be any running. MOO
Also, trying or catchup so if I am behind my apologies. Cleaning and laundry day. Plus trying to read up on UK murder/manslaughter. Want to make sure I am the most informed in my verdict.

 

[Newthoughts]

I don't want to use this as a comparison really but...........

The average clean pig carcass weight is 83kg or 13 stones. Usually carried over the shoulder.
If his job as a butcher involved moving them around, then he has plenty of strength IMO

My child's boyfriend picked her up and carried her along a beach to chuck her in the sea. Quite quickly. Quite easily. It's not an uncommon behaviour if you see couples messing around.

Daughter's boyfriend has also stood for hours at festivals with her on his shoulders (an antisocial act IMO but it didn't phase him)

My dad's job involved carrying massive bags of sugar up two flights to load into massive mixing vats. He did so easily and quite quickly.

I think PR could have got Libby to the river very easily.

Before anyone jumps down my throat I'm merely adding to @tedtink excellent point. Getting Libby to the river was not IMO going to be difficult

 

[Newthoughts]

PR stated Libby ran two meters. Would she run away to vomit? Or run away to her away from him? I have never been so drunk I had to throw up, but I know people who have and one did not even make it out of my car, which was a very frustrating moment for me!! I would imagine if someone thought they were going to vomit, there would not be any running. MOO
Also, trying or catchup so if I am behind my apologies. Cleaning and laundry day. Plus trying to read up on UK murder/manslaughter. Want to make sure I am the most informed in my verdict.

Have to admit I'm struggling with the image of somebody running 2m. It's our Covid social distancing measure. Couple of steps would do it

Traces of vomit would last a bit. Was any found?

Edited to query vomit

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Have to admit I'm struggling with the image of somebody running 2m. It's our Covid social distancing measure. Couple of steps would do it

Traces of vomit would last a bit. Was any found?

Edited to query vomit

Oh yes that makes sense! Sorry I was not thinking how short a distance 2 meters would be!

 

[JosieJo]

I believe so ...so likely able to see

I agree with everything you've said. If that's all we've got it's difficult but that is still more than many cases. So we have go to other evidence from his earlier and later behaviour from which the judge has said inferences can be drawn.

If we couldn't nobody could ever be convicted cos nobody would reach that level of proof. Ever.

@bos posted a brilliant article above about plausibility and probability and what to look at to determine guilt. We only realistically have two options so which is most plausible?

That .article offers considerations for most plausible which states:

"a) which explains more of the evidence"
Both your.options are explained by just the park evidence.
So behaviour before and after? Which option best explains the rest.
Return to the park - after a rape highly risky IMO. He's not an idiot.
Go out prowling again after a rape - highly risky. She's likely to be found wandering around and distressed. Police will check. They'll be out looking.
Not admitting to sex after arrest - highly risky, she's only been missing 5 days at that point. It's now likely she's not alive and still likely she'd be found. Claim you had sex and left her ok somewhere is better than not saying it and risk explaining yourself after a body has been found. @mrjitty had a term for the above but I can't find it.

"b) fits better with the fact finders beliefs and how the world usually works"
Explanation for return to the park is concern and to check she's ok. Is that likely given what we know about the way the world works. Would you reasonably expect concern from someone who's raped an extremely vulnerable person? Most of us cannot attack the vulnerable. In the real world it's unlikely someone lacking normal empathy would suddenly change to concern. So why go back?

His previous offences which have been allowed. Offences that are escalating and seem to show a liking for scaring woman. And his reasons for being out.

Pre planning shown by taking her there in the first place without obvious hesitation. The drone footage, prior visits. In the real world someone that plans even if just in theit heads, usually have an end point. The obvious end point to a crime is remove evidence - cos rape is serious..

"c) has parts that fit together coherently"
My opinion is that the above suggest the guilty option is more plausible and that that things fit together more coherently. The other option has incomplete plans, personality changes.

I think this case is problematic because most of the above would be exactly the same whether raped and murdered , raped and manslaughter or rape only

 

[Tortoise]

I believe so ...so likely able to see



I think this case is problematic because most of the above would be exactly the same whether raped and murdered , raped and manslaughter or rape only

That's weird I just got a notification in my inbox that you replied to my post but I can see you were actually replying to Newthoughts' post? Don't know what happened there.

 

[Ruthbullock]

My child's boyfriend picked her up and carried her along a beach to chuck her in the sea. Quite quickly. Quite easily. It's not an uncommon behaviour if you see couples messing around.

Daughter's boyfriend has also stood for hours at festivals with her on his shoulders (an antisocial act IMO but it didn't phase him)

My dad's job involved carrying massive bags of sugar up two flights to load into massive mixing vats. He did so easily and quite quickly.

I think PR could have got Libby to the river very easily.

Before anyone jumps down my throat I'm merely adding to @tedtink excellent point. Getting Libby to the river was not IMO going to be difficult

I agree with your fact that he could likely easily have carried LS, screaming through the park- it surprise me a little that they weren’t spotted by SA and only a singular person was seen later on. My difficulty is how he would have reasonably got her into the river and been back at his car in 7.5minutes . The act of carrying someone is one thing- to throw a body into the water with enough launch as to get far enough in not to get caught in the reeds is impossible. Therefore he needed to wade down through the slippy mud slope and net to the rivers edge carrying a body- that we have all discussed would possibly trap his shoes (especially with extra weight and no hands free to help you balance) and then clamber back up the mud slope and back to his car in 7.5 minutes

 

[JosieJo]

That's weird I just got a notification in my inbox that you replied to my post but I can see you were actually replying to Newthoughts' post? Don't know what happened there.

Its happened to me a few times today

 

[Tortoise]

Its happened to me a few times today

Gremlins!

Edited to add our POLL, for any Sunday posters who might not have seen it yet!

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/amended-poll-uk-libby-squire.558397/

 

[Newthoughts]

I agree with your fact that he could likely easily have carried LS, screaming through the park- it surprise me a little that they weren’t spotted by SA and only a singular person was seen later on. My difficulty is how he would have reasonably got her into the river and been back at his car in 7.5minutes . The act of carrying someone is one thing- to throw a body into the water with enough launch as to get far enough in not to get caught in the reeds is impossible. Therefore he needed to wade down through the slippy mud slope and net to the rivers edge carrying a body- that we have all discussed would possibly trap his shoes (especially with extra weight and no hands free to help you balance) and then clamber back up the mud slope and back to his car in 7.5 minutes

As many locals have said. I don't have an issue with time given his physical state compared with Libby. 7.5 minutes isn't that short a time. He only has to push her in. And he goes back

Why would he be seen when SA wasn't looking out of the window at that point?

He went home and put his clothes in the washing machine as per forensics and his own testimony and apparently washed his car.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Gremlins!

Edited to add our POLL, for any Sunday posters who might not have seen it yet!

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/amended-poll-uk-libby-squire.558397/

Sunday posters? Are they like the online equivalent of Sunday drivers - just having a nice little pootle out to visit a crime forum?

How’s the weather looking overnight / tomorrow, South Yorkshire folks? I keep hearing the “beast from the east” is coming back but no sign of up the road here... really hope it doesn’t delay the trial any further.

 

[Newthoughts]

I believe so ...so likely able to see



I think this case is problematic because most of the above would be exactly the same whether raped and murdered , raped and manslaughter or rape only

Really? In what way?

I genuinely don't understand how?

 

[Legally Bland]

Just bumping @Vermont24 's pic of the riverbank.

 

[Chambo1994]

Really? In what way?

I genuinely don't understand how?

I appreciate that you are certain in your opinion that he had plenty of time within the 7.5 minutes, so how do you see that time playing out?

I think the issue for me is I look at the steps as this - park up, sex, kill, thought/panic, carry to water, dispose of body, run back to the car.

I just can’t fit that in my head in to 7.5 minutes

 

[Steve2021]

Thank you @Vermont24

I'm pretty conflicted now.

Would you say that it's not "that easy" to get into the river, as in stumble in?

But if you took the direct access, you'd likely to get get caught by CCTV, unless there are images we haven't seen or be lucky to be not seen. Whether walking alone or with someone else there.

And if you turn right, is that pushing the ~7/8 minutes stated?

All good points. Was the 350 something metre distance cited by the prosecution going straight on through the informal path through the tree line to the river or following the right hand dogleg to the proper path? If the latter it would suggest would it not the prosecution know for sure from the Mauri yeast CCTV Libby didn't enter the river in that section.

Were the experts directly asked whether Libby could make it on her own from the road to the river, and if not how far she might manage? If not were both sides too scared of what the answer might be?