VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[tedtink]

I appreciate that you are certain in your opinion that he had plenty of time within the 7.5 minutes, so how do you see that time playing out?

I think the issue for me is I look at the steps as this - park up, sex, kill, thought/panic, carry to water, dispose of body, run back to the car.

I just can’t fit that in my head in to 7.5 minutes

I see.
Park up.
Rape in park.
Smother
Go back later trip 3
Body in same place
Dispose in river
Next day
Clean car mats (mud)
Clean car windows and hoover ( DNA)

MOO

 

[tedtink]

I agree with your fact that he could likely easily have carried LS, screaming through the park- it surprise me a little that they weren’t spotted by SA and only a singular person was seen later on. My difficulty is how he would have reasonably got her into the river and been back at his car in 7.5minutes . The act of carrying someone is one thing- to throw a body into the water with enough launch as to get far enough in not to get caught in the reeds is impossible. Therefore he needed to wade down through the slippy mud slope and net to the rivers edge carrying a body- that we have all discussed would possibly trap his shoes (especially with extra weight and no hands free to help you balance) and then clamber back up the mud slope and back to his car in 7.5 minutes

How far does the water come up the bank at that time of night or during high tide I wonder.
Also was that a particularly bad year for rain?
I live 100 yards from the Thames/Isis and the water level can vary during heavy prolonged rainfall, it rises and covers the boggy, muddy, grassy banks.
Just curious as I've missed previous discussions regarding the weather conditions that year.

 

[NottReds50]

All good points. Was the 350 something metre distance cited by the prosecution going straight on through the informal path through the tree line to the river or following the right hand dogleg to the proper path? If the latter it would suggest would it not the prosecution know for sure from the Mauri yeast CCTV Libby didn't enter the river in that section.

Were the experts directly asked whether Libby could make it on her own from the road to the river, and if not how far she might manage? If not were both sides too scared of what the answer might be?

Google maps tell me the path direct into the river is ~350m.

Even on a 30 second pivot, you'd imagine something would be picked up on that CCTV directly opposite? Going on that dogleg right, would negate the bank, and be better for footing and more closer to the river as per @Vermont24 kind photos. So I don't the timings would be that out from choosing either?

my question was how do you think he managed to get a body in the water as well in 7.5 minutes?

Good question, looking at the picture just posted, it does look very reedy. Could PR just have had blind luck? Doesn't have to be fully in the water, but then luckily tides rise and that helps? I don't know.

 

[Dotta]

PR stated Libby ran two meters. Would she run away to vomit? Or run away to her away from him? I have never been so drunk I had to throw up, but I know people who have and one did not even make it out of my car, which was a very frustrating moment for me!! I would imagine if someone thought they were going to vomit, there would not be any running. MOO
Also, trying or catchup so if I am behind my apologies. Cleaning and laundry day. Plus trying to read up on UK murder/manslaughter. Want to make sure I am the most informed in my verdict.

But 2 metres means 2-3 big steps. I don't understand running 2 metres. Maybe it means she hurriedly made 2 steps turning round.

 

[Newthoughts]

I appreciate that you are certain in your opinion that he had plenty of time within the 7.5 minutes, so how do you see that time playing out?

I think the issue for me is I look at the steps as this - park up, sex, kill, thought/panic, carry to water, dispose of body, run back to the car.

I just can’t fit that in my head in to 7.5 minutes

I'd cut out thought and panic cos I think the former had already been worked out in his head beforehand and the latter wouldn't bother him.

It was rape not sex - I think the former might be faster than people think. Seconds to fill a condom later for example.

When it comes to timing I'm going with the opinions of locals I find credible. The actual distance and average walking and running speeds for a 24 year old. The fact CPS allowed it and the defence didn't appear to labour just point to much. And the fact I can't find a plausible alternative explanation for Libby to get into the river

 

[Tortoise]

No one knows where or when Libby got in the river, so it's pointless debating whether she could have done it, from my point of view. She might have been wandering half an hour later along the banks, out of ear shot of anyone.

moo

 

[Newthoughts]

No one knows where or when Libby got in the river, so it's pointless debating whether she could have done it, from my point of view. She might have been wandering half an hour later along the banks, out of ear shot of anyone.

moo

But we still have other evidence to determine how plausible that is. Namely PRs behaviour before and after that part.

 

[tedtink]

When we talk of reeds, I don't think they're what we imagine, ie not thick, stiff, or even a barrier, like pampas grass or bamboo.
They're just grasses and in Feb would be dead so easily walked through and flattened.

 

[Tortoise]

But 2 metres means 2-3 big steps. I don't understand running 2 metres.

I think this might be a language issue. Sometimes people say 'ran' when they mean moved quickly.

He said: “She started making sounds like she wanted to vomit which is why I stopped the car.

“Once I stopped she undid her seatbelt and ran off from the car. She went about two metres [towards Oak Road] and there she fell to the ground.

 

[Steve2021]

Sometimes we have to agree to disagree. Everyone has an equal right to an opinion. No one here in my opinion has made out an argument that is stupid or doesn't merit serious consideration. Quite the reverse I've been amazed how many great points everyone has come up with. Everyone's motivation, to get to the truth and get justice for Libby is the same. So please just because someone doesn't get your opinion or you just don't get theirs, there's no need to feel that person is having a go at you. We are all doing our best!

There's so many great points here I've thought many times I hope/wish the police and prosecution were reading them all as there really could be some things here they haven't thought of.

 

[Becky53]

Would he be able to determine she was running/had run off on seeing her move only 2m?

Another of his web of lies...

PR says she ran to vomit towards Oak Rd - but she was already on Oak Rd if location for cctv is correct. House where cctv is is just beyond where he has to stop because he can go no further in car on Oak Rd.

 

[Dotta]

I think this might be a language issue. Sometimes people say 'ran' when they mean moved quickly.

He said: “She started making sounds like she wanted to vomit which is why I stopped the car.

“Once I stopped she undid her seatbelt and ran off from the car. She went about two metres [towards Oak Road] and there she fell to the ground.

It should be she hurriedly made 2 steps I think.

 

[Cherwell]

There are many ways to get a body into the water. You just drag it down the bank. Roll it in and you push it in. Use your feet. Use a stick. Use your strength. It's not difficult.

I do hope you're not speaking from personal experience.

 

[Becky53]

Sunday posters? Are they like the online equivalent of Sunday drivers - just having a nice little pootle out to visit a crime forum?

How’s the weather looking overnight / tomorrow, South Yorkshire folks? I keep hearing the “beast from the east” is coming back but no sign of up the road here... really hope it doesn’t delay the trial any further.

I’m not in Sheffield but traffic cameras show the roads to be clear of snow right now. Snow has been forecast for tonight and heavy snow for tomorrow.

 

[Sooty]

Just posting for reference



I have set the tide times for 31st jan 2019 / 1st feb 2019 with marker for relevant high tide

 

[Dotta]

I agree with your fact that he could likely easily have carried LS, screaming through the park- it surprise me a little that they weren’t spotted by SA and only a singular person was seen later on. My difficulty is how he would have reasonably got her into the river and been back at his car in 7.5minutes . The act of carrying someone is one thing- to throw a body into the water with enough launch as to get far enough in not to get caught in the reeds is impossible. Therefore he needed to wade down through the slippy mud slope and net to the rivers edge carrying a body- that we have all discussed would possibly trap his shoes (especially with extra weight and no hands free to help you balance) and then clamber back up the mud slope and back to his car in 7.5 minutes

Exactly. Not to mention ruined trousers (grass stains found only) and boots. Aha and boots' prints and fibres of PR clothes in the vegetation.

 

[Sooty]

And this one shows the height at 12:19 am so you can the rapid increase in level.

 

[NottReds50]

View attachment 283093

And this one shows the height at 12:19 am so you can the rapid increase in level.

That's the River Humber, and at the mouth by the looks of it, which would make sense for the rapid change. But this was further inland and on the River Hull.

In fact, is it tidal all the way inland that far? Apologies if this has been asked before!

 

[Dotta]

Sunday posters? Are they like the online equivalent of Sunday drivers - just having a nice little pootle out to visit a crime forum?

How’s the weather looking overnight / tomorrow, South Yorkshire folks? I keep hearing the “beast from the east” is coming back but no sign of up the road here... really hope it doesn’t delay the trial any further.

The Beast from East is already in Poland The wind is howling and it is freezing. I just wait patiently for spring.

 

[Miss_French]

Have to admit I'm struggling with the image of somebody running 2m. It's our Covid social distancing measure. Couple of steps would do it

Traces of vomit would last a bit. Was any found?

Edited to query vomit

PR never said that Libby actually vomited.