GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[C.greek]

I do not disagree with most ...I just have no way of knowing if the screams stopped because she was dead or because the rape was over and he left her there and walked quickly away from the scene

Yeah I understand where your doubts come from. I think that the determined walk out of the park combined with the fact of his third visit there 2 hours after the event point me towards her being dead or dying at that time.

 

[Ktboo]

What do dbm and MOO stand for please?

 

[Ktboo]

What do dbm and MOO stand for please?

 

[Steve2021]

I think this too. He knew he had to deny setting foot in the park so he said they had sex on Oak Road to distance himself from the river scenario. In reality, he could have had approx 3 minutes to get himself and Libby up to the pond before raping her and her screaming. That went on for a couple more minutes before he then legged it back to his car.

Now, did he kill her (and personally I think she was smothered during the attack, to silence her) and throw her in the river on visit 2, or did he leave her near the bank and jog up there to put her in on visit 3?

Either or, if you question the location near the green shed, an alternative location nearer the water a) makes the timescales more credible, and b) fits better with SA’s testimony.

But if SA is right she was alive at 12.18 and he was in the car at 12.19

 

[tigerowl]

If you accept SA isn't so incompetent he can't even read the 12.14 time correctly on his phone when he awoke...it's rather difficult/impossible when he says the screams started just one minute later to say he could be mistaken and they started at 12.30 as per the Claremont witnesses. Unless he fell asleep again and woke up again without realising it?

Yes, but if you take this as the one fact is true and all of the other screaming times are out or he didn't hear it or it was foxes we have one point that says Libby was still alive at 12.15. This means an absolute maximum of 4 minutes to kill her, react to the fact that he had killed her, get her to the river from where he is, get her in and get back to his car without running the full distance.

 

[Skigh]

What do dbm and MOO stand for please?

Deleted by me.

My own opinion.

 

[Tortoise]

From the Prosecutor which suggests around 4.5 mins outside of the car............

"Relowicz is now being asked about his third visit to the playing fields, in the early hours of February 1.

He arrived there at 2.25am and left a little after 2.30am."

Pawel Relowicz returns to witness stand as week two of trial ends

The judge says car lights seen moving along the road 4.5 minutes later. I suggest the unquoted seconds push the time closer to the next minute in terms of his arrival, ie almost 2:26am or 2:25:30.

They only have lights to go by, no witnesses of him outside the car.

 

[tedtink]

I do not disagree with most ...I just have no way of knowing if the screams stopped because she was dead or because the rape was over and he left her there and walked quickly away from the scene

Then I would ask why he went back?
If you take him at his word .....

"Relowicz told the jury earlier this week that he “went back and stopped and looked to see whether Libby had been into a yard or was laying on the ground.”

Why do that if he'd raped her?

" he left her alive and well, standing on Oak Road."?

No need to go back then.

“I left Libby Squire on Oak Road and went home and went back there because I was worried she could fall over as she had fallen over on many occasions previously. It was cold, minus two and a half degrees so she could have frozen or something.”

Discovered a conscience after masturbating at home or realised he needed to cover up a serious crime?
jmo

Pawel Relowicz returns to witness stand as week two of trial ends

 

[JosieJo]

Yeah I understand where your doubts come from. I think that the determined walk out of the park combined with the fact of his third visit there 2 hours after the event point me towards her being dead or dying at that time.

For me if had had raped her he would still want to get away quickly
The latter visit to the park is more worrying..but could still have been for various reasons

 

[tedtink]

The judge says car lights seen moving along the road 4.5 minutes later. I suggest the unquoted seconds push the time closer to the next minute in terms of his arrival, ie almost 2:26am or 2:25:30.

They only have lights to go by, no witnesses of him outside the car.

He said he got out of the car.

 

[JosieJo]

Then I would ask why he went back?
If you take him at his word .....

"Relowicz told the jury earlier this week that he “went back and stopped and looked to see whether Libby had been into a yard or was laying on the ground.”

Why do that if he'd raped her?

" he left her alive and well, standing on Oak Road."?

No need to go back then.

“I left Libby Squire on Oak Road and went home and went back there because I was worried she could fall over as she had fallen over on many occasions previously. It was cold, minus two and a half degrees so she could have frozen or something.”

Discovered a conscience after masturbating at home or realised he needed to cover up a serious crime?

I'm not saying i believe his version of events...im asking my self if the prosecution have proven he had killed her when he walked away out of the park or walked away from a rape ....either way his version would be a lie

 

[tedtink]

I'm not saying i believe his version of events...im asking my self if
the prosecution have proven he had killed her when he walked away out of the park or walked away from a rape ....either way his version would be a lie

Yeah I realise that.
And it's no wonder we're still deliberating as is the Jury!

 

[Mommysleuth11]

How many seconds do you reckon it takes a strapping young man to pick up a heavy object and throw/push/roll it away? 10 seconds? 20? 30?

It would depend where he was taking any object to and from.
I can't understand if her left Libby so close to the river it would have taken mere seconds to then put here in, why he wouldn't have just done this the first time?
Why leave her that close and have to risk going back again a further time?
If she was much further away then obviously the answer would likely be longer?

 

[Tortoise]

He said he got out of the car.

Yes I know. But my point is the car was already moving along the road 4.5 minutes after he arrived, which isn't 4.5 minutes outside of it.

 

[tedtink]

It would depend where he was taking any object to and from.
I can't understand if her left Libby so close to the river it would have taken mere seconds to then put here in, why he wouldn't have just done this the first time?
Why leave her that close and gave to risk going back again a further time?
If she was much further away then obviously the answer would likely be longer?

I doubt he'd have had time to check she was alive on visit 2.
Going back on visit 3 may have confirmed that.
JMO

 

[Ruthbullock]

I dont believe the green shed story one little bit. I agree he is trying to distance himself from the river.

He would want to rape her as far away from those houses as possible IMO.

I am torn on whether her put her in the river on the 2nd or 3rd visit. I think probably the 2nd and the 3rd was just to check that her body had moved from that spot.

I still believe the timings of the screams evidenced by SA are the more accurate ones and that the 12.30 screams that the other 2 witnesses heard were the same ones with the timings slightly out (otherwise surely all of them would have heard 2 lots of scream).

I am still torn on whether he meant to kill her or whether the rape went wrong when he was trying to silence her though. But either way I think he put her in the river i dont believe she ended up there accidentally or that it was suicide.

I think there must be some evidence that we haven’t seen from the house CCTV showing oak road. We have been told (but we only saw one part and I struggled to make out much of what was happening) that two people were seen arriving and one leaving. It seems PR is quite fastidious about locking up his car, so that would also give some more timings that we haven’t seen- both of those would perhaps give us some indication of how long they were around the car.

 

[bos]

The defence when cross examining the CCTV (DC Gangridge)was extremely keen to make the point that PR couldn’t have left Raglan Street at any other point between arriving home from ORPF/his 2 visits to Newland/Alexandra Road & going shopping on the Saturday pm.

The DC said there was “no other CCTV found”

I know I’m entering the realms of wild speculation here but it would not surprise me in the slightest to learn that PR had left Raglan Street on foot via an exit with no CCTV at another point that night!

 

[Becky53]

See the post just above yours, I've added the quote from judge's summing up. His last visit was 4.5 mins in total, including being in the car driving away.

My apololigies I misread your post - I didn’t see the word *final* before visit....

 

[astheworldfallsdown]

Thanks for the updates today @jamjim

 

[bos]

If you were using Oak Road to turn having gone past all turnings on Beresford & you had a retching/gipping girl in the passenger seat, why wouldn’t you turn/stop at the intersection of Beresford/Oak Road which you come to first & is wider for turning? Why go along to the furthest point a vehicle can get to on Oak Rd?