Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #10 *ARREST*

[Newthoughts]

As my previous post.

Probably a simple reason for the police letting ITV release that footage...they wanted it to be seen (albeit an edited version)

The footage must contain the car parking and the occupant getting out. ITV claim suspicious activity for 20 minutes. Obviously they've edited bits where nothing happened but there has to be a reason why they've not shown the person leaving the car initially. Nor where they go to after leaving. It starts with him returning. Those bits would only add seconds to the video and would be relevant.

I can't imagine ITV not working with the police before releasing anything in a case like this so I presume we're seeing what they want us to see without prejudicing a case. Maybe the identity is clearer earlier on or others are present?

Joelle88, who is the only one here who had seen PR in the flesh and she thinks it was him. Maybe they want to jog the memories of people that know or have seen him?

 

[motherofdaughters]

The search in the Humber has resumed again today

Live as police resume search after 'body' seen in Humber Estuary

Can you imagine the turmoil LS's closest are feeling whilst this goes on?
It could be anyone, it could be nothing.
I question if they're either pretty certain it WAS a body to continue the prolonged search.
Or, they're appeasing the public.

Libby Squire: A month on | Humberside Police

update from Humberside police

Interesting that the walkers/bikers have not come foreward. Although, I'm not sure how far their reach is as I on;y saw and heard of it in here.


I'm totally confused by the Kidnap/abduction difference. I've tried to Google to clarify it.
All Kidnapping is abduction but not all abduction is Kidnapping.
Does that make kidnapping the more severe?
In some articles I've read it seems kidnapping is usually associated with removing from your own country to another which would give weight to the trafficking theory (although I'm not personally remotely sold on that at all)
Kidnapping is usually done for a motive or for a gain, such as ransom.

 

[jessie]

I think it's the reporter hinting at the fact she was last seen on the corner.

Then magically dissapeared at the same time someone was seen getting in the car.

We havnt had it confirmed it is LS in the car.

I think it's a subtle way of saying it is.

Sometimes it's not what they show/say it's what they don't that is most interesting.

But if Libby was seen at the junction then was she seen with someone? Many here are theorising that LS saw Libby on the bench or thereabouts and led her to his car parked in Haworth.

If that had happened LS would also have been identified by the same means?

The alternative is Libby wandered into Haworth under her own power and that seems dubious to me ? OMOO

 

[Joolz1975]

The footage must contain the car parking and the occupant getting out. ITV claim suspicious activity for 20 minutes. Obviously they've edited bits where nothing happened but there has to be a reason why they've not shown the person leaving the car initially. Nor where they go to after leaving. It starts with him returning. Those bits would only add seconds to the video and would be relevant.

I can't imagine ITV not working with the police before releasing anything in a case like this so I presume we're seeing what they want us to see without prejudicing a case. Maybe the identity is clearer earlier on or others are present?

Joelle88, who is the only one here who had seen PR in the flesh and she thinks it was him. Maybe they want to jog the memories of people that know or have seen him?

It may be as simple as their were people around that had absolutely nothing to do with it and they don't want them involved.

It could be he as doing something not fit to broadcast ( he does like to air his bits allegedly).

Could be all manner of reasons.

Most simple is we are seeing what the Police want us to see but they didn't want to release it themselves or they didn't need to release it.

They only tend to release CCTV if they want the public to see what the missing person was wearing or they want to identify a witness etc...

I think they probably identified everyone in it, knew it was PR and knew it was LS and decided to let ITV run snippets.

Most likely because they wanted his family to see it.

 

[Joolz1975]

The footage must contain the car parking and the occupant getting out. ITV claim suspicious activity for 20 minutes. Obviously they've edited bits where nothing happened but there has to be a reason why they've not shown the person leaving the car initially. Nor where they go to after leaving. It starts with him returning. Those bits would only add seconds to the video and would be relevant.

I can't imagine ITV not working with the police before releasing anything in a case like this so I presume we're seeing what they want us to see without prejudicing a case. Maybe the identity is clearer earlier on or others are present?

Joelle88, who is the only one here who had seen PR in the flesh and she thinks it was him. Maybe they want to jog the memories of people that know or have seen him?

Also that camera was a still camera it can't have shown where he went or appeared from as it was focussed directly on the area of the car and not moving.

So it wouldnt have picked up anything other than him been in the vicinity of the car...God knows what he was doing for the whole 20mins but he probably was not in view for all of it.

 

[Hatfield]

Can anyone find a clearer definition of the legal difference between kidnap and abduction of an adult in the UK?

IMO this is my take on it.
I tried to lookup all the definitions and I think I can conclude that, in general, people will use the terms interchangeably and synonymously.

But the history and original intent was that kidnapping used to mainly be used for a reason such as ransom. Like the Charles Lindberg kidnapping of his child for ransom.

Whereas abduction is the act of taking someone away from their location against their will. Period. Think Alien abduction. Person taken. Period. No telling what the aliens are going to do.

When someone kidnaps someone they use the abduction method to do it. So abduction is the act and kidnapping is the act with usually a further devious intent.

Best link I found and it is still clear as mud but has some good examples of difference in usage

What is the difference between "abduct" and "kidnap"?

 

[Joolz1975]

But if Libby was seen at the junction then was she seen with someone? Many here are theorising that LS saw Libby on the bench or thereabouts and led her to his car parked in Haworth.

If that had happened LS would also have been identified by the same means?

The alternative is Libby wandered into Haworth under her own power and that seems dubious to me ? OMOO

I mean I'd need a crystal ball to answer that one

Other CCTV likely picked up any interaction on that corner between Libby or anyone else.

They cannot come out and say that PR was on the corner with LS and led her to his car.

We have to read between the lines I think.

 

[Strontium69]

Ah! While youre not on bike for 45secs.... i know you dont like the relevence but quick Q...how long would you say for a fit 20 something male to run from pond/ buildings/riverbank to main carpark in conditions similar to 31j/1f? Tyia

Off the top of my head I would have said looking at 90-120 seconds?

Assuming a fit 20s should be able to run 400 metres in less than 75s on a track in racing conditions, and that's generous. If they actually tried, it should be closer to 60s. Add for icy conditions?

Google puts the area of the fallen tree at around 300 metres from outside the carpark.

So you could be looking at around 60s from that fallen tree? It's practically a direct line from there and is a natural spot to head to if B-lining from the pond area for the carpark.

If you go to 40:08 I am stood at the South West corner of the pond, looking towards the gap in the trees that comes out just before the skate park.

 

[Joolz1975]

Yes. That's what I believe I am seeing, after studying it over and over again. And not only is the passenger 'scooped in', she (and I'm sure it's a she, given the short jacket and the legs) then bounces a little as she's plopped onto the seat and she flops over towards the drivers seat as a result of the speed/momentum/force involved in her landing on the seat.

Definitely bounces and flops over a little.

Looks more to me that he takes something off the seat then puts it in the footwell or even over the back if the seat (depends which speed I watch it).

I See different things each and every time.

 

[Strontium69]

This is why I think it may be important Joolz . Im still looking / asking but its what the intent is AFTER the initial interaction that seems to determine offence/terminology? Am I reading that correctly?

It's a difficult one to precisely grasp... they could in a lot of cases both be applied to the same cases...

However:

Abduction - Is the taking of another person in an illegal manner.

Kidnapping - Is the forceful taking of a person with the intent to extract money, political gain, commit criminal activity, etc.

Example:
If a father has lost custody, and he takes matters in his own hands and takes his kid off to Spain away from his mother who the Courts have deemed his LEGAL GUARDIAN, he has taken, even his own child, in an ILLEGAL MANNER. Regardless of his love for that child and the fact that there may be no harm come to the child, there is no underlying intent to cause harm or carry out criminal activity.

That would be abduction.

You're wondering where you're wife is she's not normally that late... when a mysterious note, made up of cut out letters from various newspapers and magazines...

That would be kidnapping.

 

[scootermuppet]

I'm sticking my neck and saying PR and Libby was the people in the cctv at Oak rd at 2.34.The man in the cctv never moves head or body the person next to him leans forward and backwards all the time like when you're drunk.

That’s my interpretation of the video too. Agree.

 

[Joolz1975]

That’s my interpretation of the video too. Agree.

I'm not sure.

Doesn't look like bare legs to me.

And also she probably hadn't had a drink in over 3 hours at this point would she still be so unsteady.

I think it looks like PRs style of clothing but can't make out enough of the other person.

 

[Strontium69]

ALSO:

Abduction cases would normally relate to family law matters, and may possibly be dealt with in a totally different way, more like a social worker, and it features a lot more cross-border cooperation, as the normal method of abduction in these cases is when a family member runs off to another country with another family member. Time may not be a crucial factor. The action for a case could simply be waiting a couple of weeks until they are picked up at an airport or are persuaded to turn themselves in. They are often emotionally fraught cases.

Kidnapping would mostly be dealt with by serious crimes units, dog units, firearms units, speed may be of the essence, and it may be a purely criminal enterprise.

 

[scootermuppet]

4 police and photographer here just now. I have just come out from the B&Q and the short road to the river Hull had police cars at the end of the road near the old ferry pub. I live a stones throw from here and as I was walking home by the time I got to the river to look they were getting ready to leave. Maybe just analysing the river bend and bridge. Could have nothing to do with LS but worth noting.

 

[Joolz1975]

ALSO:

Abduction cases would normally relate to family law matters, and may possibly be dealt with in a totally different way, more like a social worker, and it features a lot more cross-border cooperation, as the normal method of abduction in these cases is when a family member runs off to another country with another family member. Time may not be a crucial factor. The action for a case could simply be waiting a couple of weeks until they are picked up at an airport or are persuaded to turn themselves in. They are often emotionally fraught cases.

Kidnapping would mostly be dealt with by serious crimes units, dog units, firearms units, speed may be of the essence, and it may be a purely criminal enterprise.

But the original arrest was on abduction charges?

Maybe they phrased it wrong first time.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Given we're now pretty certain Libby lived at 32, and knowing that 32 has a back garden gate leading to a shared alley with Heathcote, could the witness reports of the scream/banging gate be more pertinent?

Here's the map (32 in centre with conservatory) and witness statement:

Google Maps

@12.30
The concerned mum of two, who lives in nearby Heathcote Street near where it joins Wellesley Avenue, said: “We did hear screaming at 12.30 on Thursday night. “I was just in bed reading. We do get a lot of students who live in the road that Libby lives in who use this road as a cut through. “They go past screaming, shouting and singing. It’s not unusual. “But this made us sit up. It sounded like someone being attacked. The scream sounded like it was coming from someone who was scared. “It was someone walking quite close past our house. It was just one female scream. “Then we heard other voices muttering very low, murmuring and then more screams and more male voices. “Then we heard the slamming of a door. It sounded like a wooden door or a garden gate. “It was just very odd,” added the woman, a Hull University graduate whose dad is a retired policeman. “We didn’t think about it again until the police came round knocking on everybody’s doors on Saturday,” she recalled. “We talked about it and remembered the scream and rang 101.”“It was really shrill and urgent. It made me sit up and think ‘Oh my God’.

Libby Squire's neighbour claims to have heard a woman’s "blood curdling" scream

 

[Joolz1975]

4 police and photographer here just now. I have just come out from the B&Q and the short road to the river Hull had police cars at the end of the road near the old ferry pub. I live a stones throw from here and as I was walking home by the time I got to the river to look they were getting ready to leave. Maybe just analysing the river bend and bridge. Could have nothing to do with LS but worth noting.

Is that up river or down river from Oak road?

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

It's a difficult one to precisely grasp... they could in a lot of cases both be applied to the same cases...

However:

Abduction - Is the taking of another person in an illegal manner.

Kidnapping - Is the forceful taking of a person with the intent to extract money, political gain, commit criminal activity, etc.

Example:
If a father has lost custody, and he takes matters in his own hands and takes his kid off to Spain away from his mother who the Courts have deemed his LEGAL GUARDIAN, he has taken, even his own child, in an ILLEGAL MANNER. Regardless of his love for that child and the fact that there may be no harm come to the child, there is no underlying intent to cause harm or carry out criminal activity.

That would be abduction.

You're wondering where you're wife is she's not normally that late... when a mysterious note, made up of cut out letters from various newspapers and magazines...

That would be kidnapping.

Thanks Str and Hatf.



Therefore the arrest on susp of abduction is less developed than an investigation into kidnap?

However, le couldnt prove even abduction enough to charge.

Im muddled now but im thinking that the possibly inadvertent use of ' kidnap' shows us that LE are looking at , or their investigation has led them to, a line of thought that PR has stashed LS somewhere or has been involved in LS being stashed somewhere? And/or With an intent to commit crime on

 

[Joolz1975]

Thanks Str and Hatf.



Therefore the arrest on susp of abduction is less developed than an investigation into kidnap?

However, le couldnt prove even abduction enough to charge.

Im muddled now but im thinking that the possibly inadvertent use of ' kidnap' shows us that LE are looking at , or their investigationa has led them to, a line of thought that PR has stashed LS somewhere or has been involved in LS being stashed somewhere?

But why the river searches?

Unless they think she was kept somewhere for some days before they panicked and the river came into play.

You've gone and done it now SVS!! My suspicious paranoid ramblings are coming out to play again.

 

[ly502]

Remanded for the other charges and under investigation for abduction?

Thank you!! I was going to point this out if no one else did...is this an error or are they talking about two different people? PR and maybe someone else questioned? Confusing....