Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #11 *ARREST*

[Zazie]

Do you think she fell in the River while running away from an attacker? What is your opinion of what happened on that night?

I've been mulling a couple of scenarios. If the police had found Libby's DNA in the boot of PR's car early on, surely their initial abduction charge would have stuck. So I'm assuming they didn't find any DNA in the boot.

If police had CCTV of his car with a passenger at any final location than heading towards the park, surely they'd be searching those locations by now? Ergo, she disappeared in the park.

I think if you were really panicking and disorientated in a dark park, and trying to get away from a potential rapist that you couldn't outrun, you might be desperate enough to enter a river heading for the far bank in the hope your pursuer wouldn't follow, then succumb to the cold. Alternatively, the pursuer might have caught Libby, there was contact - possibly in the derelict boathouse (which the police seemed interested in, over a number of days) - after which he disposed of her body in the river or concealed it on land. Water is the better option: it's less effort than dragging/digging, it looks accidental, and you'd hope the body would be carried away and DNA evidence deteriorate.

Police have ended the land search, despite the dense vegetation within Croda, and - correct me if I'm wrong - haven't used sniffer dogs extensively within the area; the water searches didn't seem particularly thorough either - they didn't drain the pond, for example.

With the limited info on offer, this suggests to me police think (or even know) that Libby entered the river and didn't exit the other side, but can't yet prove it wasn't an accident; and that they believe that due to currents, searching for her body is hopeless.

If they ever believed there was a chance of Libby being concealed on land, surely (as others have mentioned) the searches within the park and Croda would have been more systematic than they appeared, and employed more dogs? Everything seems to point to the river, in my opinion; and PR's defence as a chat in the park, followed by them parting; or even consensual sex, followed by them parting (if they found evidence in the boathouse).

 

[motherofdaughters]

The spider cam was fixed.

It only showed what was directly in front of it so isn't going to show where the other car was parked unless it was directly in front of it.

I imagine the CCTV across the road would also have picked the cars/cyclist up.

 

[motherofdaughters]

The time all this happened was practically high tide too and the river level would have been right up the top of the banks.

I thought someone showed tide times, way back, that showed it would be neither high nor low tide, meaning it would be very muddy on the banks.

 

[Quintet]

Talking about Flippancy...it's Pancake Day. Butter, Sugar and a Squeeze of Lemon on mine please. Sorry for Flippant Flip Flippancy.

Bugger...my frying pan (teal) is broke.

 

[Vermont24]

I think the fact that police turned up one night, after dark, and focused exclusively on a single bench suggests, to me, that particular information was shared or uncovered. Surely darkness isn't ideal conditions for forensic work.

If you were going to have consensual sex in a secluded and empty park, then perhaps a bench would be the place to do it. That said, drunk or not, I just can't see LS entering the park of her own free will on a -5c night with someone who was seemingly a stranger.

 

[Joolz1975]

I imagine the CCTV across the road would also have picked the cars/cyclist up.

Don't doubt it but was more talking about the missing minutes on spider cam.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

I've been mulling a couple of scenarios. If the police had found Libby's DNA in the boot of PR's car early on, surely their initial abduction charge would have stuck. So I'm assuming they didn't find any DNA in the boot.

If police had CCTV of his car with a passenger at any final location than heading towards the park, surely they'd be searching those locations by now? Ergo, she disappeared in the park.

I think if you were really panicking and disorientated in a dark park, and trying to get away from a potential rapist that you couldn't outrun, you might be desperate enough to enter a river heading for the far bank in the hope your pursuer wouldn't follow, then succumb to the cold. Alternatively, the pursuer might have caught Libby, there was contact - possibly in the derelict boathouse (which the police seemed interested in, over a number of days) - after which he disposed of her body in the river or concealed it on land. Water is the better option: it's less effort than dragging/digging, it looks accidental, and you'd hope the body would be carried away and DNA evidence deteriorate.

Police have ended the land search, despite the dense vegetation within Croda, and - correct me if I'm wrong - haven't used sniffer dogs extensively within the area; the water searches didn't seem particularly thorough either - they didn't drain the pond, for example.

With the limited info on offer, this suggests to me police think (or even know) that Libby entered the river and didn't exit the other side, but can't yet prove it wasn't an accident; and that they believe that due to currents, searching for her body is hopeless.

If they ever believed there was a chance of Libby being concealed on land, surely (as others have mentioned) the searches within the park and Croda would have been more systematic than they appeared, and employed more dogs? Everything seems to point to the river, in my opinion; and PR's defence as a chat in the park, followed by them parting; or even consensual sex, followed by them parting (if they found evidence in the boathouse).

Im pretty much with you z more or less. I think LE have River searched a fair bit but just without as much press coverage or open info as say the Pond and Park.

Am a bit unsure/open minded on a couple of things that seem plausible outside this still however .

To our knowledge , the area of focus has been pretty tight . Park river bev rd. ...I feel the answers must be there.

 

[motherofdaughters]

Don't doubt it but was more talking about the missing minutes on spider cam.

I assume they're only missing to us, the general public. The LE will have them.

 

[Joolz1975]

Bugger...my frying pan (teal) is broke.

You can borrow mine...Le Creuset (cerise)

 

[Joolz1975]

I assume they're only missing to us, the general public. The LE will have them.

I never said they didn't....putting words in my mouth now.

I stated that the spider cam wouldn't have picked up what happened further up Howarth St as it was a fixed camera and could not pan up the street.

I never said LE would not have the missing minutes.

It was a comment about someone saying that the missing minutes would show where the silver Megane came from and I pointed out spider cam could not see up the street that is all.

 

[Sarahjo]

Question...

If LS is eventually found in water but with no visible signs of injury and COD is determined to be drowning.. then if they can prove she was taken to the park by PR can he be charged in relation to her death if they can’t prove he forcibly took her there? Can the reason she was there, be it willingly or not, was PR taking her there be enough to charge him with anything even if she ran off and entered the water on her own?

 

[Newthoughts]

No I'm not, I am saying it is Libby's sole fault for being far too drunk. Not that it is also connected with her abduction because she was too drunk. Although it will have an implication to a degree because if she was stone cold sober then........

To clarify, she was hammered and it's clear she was, that fact alone makes her responsible for being drunk, not for her ' abduction '. I don't know many people in my whole long life that have become very drunk yet it has been blamed on someone else. She's 21, not a baby, not a kid or a young teen and is probably accustomed to drinking heavily like a load of students do.

Please read my comment properly before making a statement like you have done that I have bolded.

On what do you base your claim that she is probably accustomed to drinking heavily? As you yourself are so Keen to point out - we know nothing about her

I'd hypothesise the fact she was so hammered suggests the opposite.

21 is not worldly wise. Nowhere near it

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

I think the fact that police turned up one night, after dark, and focused exclusively on a single bench suggests, to me, that particular information was shared or uncovered. Surely darkness isn't ideal conditions for forensic work.

If you were going to have consensual sex in a secluded and empty park, then perhaps a bench would be the place to do it. That said, I just can't see LS entering the park of her own free will on a -5c night with someone who was seemingly a stranger.

I think these are interesting points. Im not sure quite how yet to phrase it but we know nothing of LS' personal morality or wider Morality, only hearsay about personality, etc. We dont know her at all.

We dont know if any offence has taken place involving PR. Or When any offence took place involving PR. ( i.e possibly Post park bench?) ( although weighted to there being so or suspected)
There are more ways to be selfdestructive than through alcohol and more choices of how one shows low selfesteem other than self harming

Im not suggesting non offence ( I now believe the offence of Kidnapping took place on Haworth St or at the Park but could be wrong) .

Its an interesting point about if/when any compliance/free will ended and one that I personally believe isnt relevant in this case but is cert worth theorising or thinking about

 

[Joolz1975]

Question...

If LS is eventually found in water but with no visible signs of injury and COD is determined to be drowning.. then if they can prove she was taken to the park by PR can he be charged in relation to her death if they can’t prove he forcibly took her there? Can the reason she was there, be it willingly or not, was PR taking her there be enough to charge him with anything even if she ran off and entered the water on her own?

I'm really not sure.

Whether it would be enough to bring charges is one thing whether it would convince a jury is another..

Gut feeling is if they find no evidence of a struggle on the body (if one is found) and cause if death is drowning then they will find it hard to put any kind of case together.

This is all assuming she is in the water obviously.

They would have to tie PR to injuries on her I'd have thought and that might be very difficult to do.

 

[Vermont24]

On what do you base your claim that she is probably accustomed to drinking heavily. As you yourself are so Keen to point out - we know nothing about her

I'd hypothesise the fact she was so hammered suggests the opposite.

21 is not worldly wise. Nowhere near it

Odd how people are trying to almost pathologise her drunkeness, isnt it.

 

[Cherwell]

Question...

If LS is eventually found in water but with no visible signs of injury and COD is determined to be drowning.. then if they can prove she was taken to the park by PR can he be charged in relation to her death if they can’t prove he forcibly took her there? Can the reason she was there, be it willingly or not, was PR taking her there be enough to charge him with anything even if she ran off and entered the water on her own?

No.

 

[motherofdaughters]

I never said they didn't....putting words in my mouth now.

I stated that the spider cam wouldn't have picked up what happened further up Howarth St as it was a fixed camera and could not pan up the street.

I never said LE would not have the missing minutes.

It was a comment about someone saying that the missing minutes would show where the silver Megane came from and I pointed out spider cam could not see up the street that is all.

Jeez, we're all a bit tetchy in here. Just goes to show how wrong people can interpret text. I'm just gerenally answering questions as I see the answers.

 

[Joolz1975]

Jeez, we're all a bit tetchy in here. Just goes to show how wrong people can interpret text. I'm just gerenally answering questions as I see the answers.

If you had read the whole of the posts you might have taken what I said in the context of how it was meant that is all!

Am i not allowed to clarify when someone has misunderstood what I have stated ?If you could let me know for future misunderstandings?

 

[Cherwell]

There is one thing which may account for Libby being more intoxicated than the others, and I mentioned it as a possibility a while back. That is mixing drugs with alcohol. Now I don't know if she was on any prescription medication, but even something like an antihistamine or cold & flu remedy might react with alcohol. You know how these things usually warn you not to drive or operate machinery? Sometimes they can knock you out more than you expect.

 

[Newthoughts]

Yes I do, either by accident or she was assisted into that river. I would hazard a guess it was accidental yet PR was present at the time. The time all this happened was practically high tide too and the river level would have been right up the top of the banks. Despite it being allgedly minus 5 degrees, and the ground being frozen/snow covered, the river would have been flowing freely as normal and not iced over. The tidal current would also be being ebbed towards the Humber river. The distance from Oak Road River Hull entrance points is less than 4 miles to The Deep. The tidal flow out of the river hull can flow at 4mph easily when the tide is going out, if not faster.

This means, it will take around one hour or at the most two hours for her body once in the Hull River at Oak Road, to reach The Deep and into the humber river.

Now, think of that fact.

Say she was in the river at 1am. two hours drifting to the Humber makes it 3 am.

Then drifting out towards the north sea, another 2 hours and hey presto, totally gone without trace.

Reported missing about 11am I think, 11 hours after last seen - it's very possible this scenario rather than people thinking she is alive and held.

Water is one of the easiest ways to get rid of someone, especially with strong tidal currents.

She was very drunk. It would be very difficult for her to negotiate her way to the river over rough ground. Even harder from her home or anywhere on the quickest route to that home as per the claims made by PRs sister about his actions that night about meeting a crying girl who wanted a lift home.

She was also reported missing by her friends when they got home. So much earlier than 11am.