Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #15 *ARREST*

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  • #1,001
Sadly, it is starting to look as if there isn't going to be the breakthrough that those who wanted justice for this poor young girl were hoping for. It seems to me that the longer it goes on, the less likelihood there is of a conviction. Unless, of course, the police and CPS have kept a stash of stuff out of the public domain and are waiting to clobber the suspect with it when charges are finally laid.

As I said in a previous thread, in one sense they have no need to hurry - except that continuing to delay charges gives the impression that they may not have enough evidence, and also creates an information vacuum to be filled with conspiracy theories. They have the suspect under lock and key on unrelated matters and I guess the acid test will be in July if he is acquitted of those or is convicted but does not get a custodial sentence. Rather than let him loose, the police and CPS may be forced to arrest and charge him at that point.

Even then, though, would a charge be murder or manslaughter. If I find myself attracted to someone to the point of physical desire, make an effort to get to know her, and ask her out and she rebuffs my advances and I go away and brood on it and brood on it and decide that if I can't have her then nobody will, and I go out one dark night and lie in wait for her, specifically, waylay her and kill her deliberately and with forethought, then that's murder.

Similarly, if I am driven by the sort of proclivities that beset, say, Jack the Ripper and I have a mission, a compulsion, to murder young girls, and I go out at night to areas where they may be found with the deliberate intent of killing one or more, then that again is murder.

Clearly neither of the above scenarios its this case.

So we have two people in a car, one vulnerable and the other looking to take advantage, and the situation develops via the suspect perhaps trying to initiate some sort of sexual contact, which then gets out of hand, develops into a struggle, maybe temper flares, and he ends up with a dead victim. I note that several people have pointed out how long manual strangulation can take, but this is not the only way in which such a dreadful outcome could happen. There are several martial arts blows that reputedly can kill outright. Also things such as "burking" and "yoking".

In that scenario presumably the lack of premeditation means that the only realistic prospect of conviction is manslaughter. But in this case, unless they are sitting on something they aren't releasing, it looks like they don't have anything evidentially connecting him to her after the playing fields CCTV.

Finally, I don't know if anyone's said this recently but I am sure that everyone here is motivated by wanting to get justice for Libby Squire, even though some of the posts (eg like this one of mine here) might be hard to take or seem weird/prurient to the first glance...
Why do you say going out with the deliberate attempt to murder clearly didn't happen? It could have done. Every killer has a first victim.

I don't think initiating a consensual sexual encounter was on his mind.
 
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  • #1,002
Clearly to me, police do not know if she was murdered. They treated it as such not to miss anything. But...if she did drown, as I said before, turning that into murder is going to be very difficult, with the images and witnesses who saw her fall over, etc...jmo. Cause of death is everything in such a case.
 
  • #1,003
Why do you say going out with the deliberate attempt to murder clearly didn't happen? It could have done. Every killer has a first victim.

I don't think initiating a consensual sexual encounter was on his mind.

There is absolutely no question of consent but yes I see the sexual encounter as his aim, personally.
 
  • #1,004
There is absolutely no question of consent but yes I see the sexual encounter as his aim, personally.
I agree that I'd see his motives were his sexual gratification but I don't see how the precludes anything including planning to get rid of someone. What little we know about his alleged charges are quite sinister.
 
  • #1,005
Clearly to me, police do not know if she was murdered. They treated it as such not to miss anything. But...if she did drown, as I said before, turning that into murder is going to be very difficult, with the images and witnesses who saw her fall over, etc...jmo. Cause of death is everything in such a case.
So yeah, I have missed you all. I have been otherwise occupied. I believe Libby's death is being investigated as "homicide" as there was some indication it was, in fact murder.
We have in the classifications of death Cause, Manner and Mechanism. Cause being homicide (caused by another), accidental, natural, suicide, etc., Manner being stabbing, disease, poison and whatever, and finally Mechanism being exsanguination, cellular, heart disease, trauma, etc.
So there may have been some obvious indication that Libby's death was caused by another - stabbing, strangulation, to be investigated as a homicide right off. Finding the body was the answer to all of that but there was some indication that her disappearance was caused by something outside of herself? The car video?
JMO.
But I find this link helpful re COD, MOD, etc., - Cause, Mechanism, and Manner of Death - Crime Museum
 
  • #1,006
So yeah, I have missed you all. I have been otherwise occupied. I believe Libby's death is being investigated as "homicide" as there was some indication it was, in fact murder.
We have in the classifications of death Cause, Manner and Mechanism. Cause being homicide (caused by another), accidental, natural, suicide, etc., Manner being stabbing, disease, poison and whatever, and finally Mechanism being exsanguination, cellular, heart disease, trauma, etc.
So there may have been some obvious indication that Libby's death was caused by another - stabbing, strangulation, to be investigated as a homicide right off. Finding the body was the answer to all of that but there was some indication that her disappearance was caused by something outside of herself? The car video?
JMO.
But I find this link helpful re COD, MOD, etc., - Cause, Mechanism, and Manner of Death - Crime Museum
Thanks for this great article share @Steleheart
 
  • #1,007
You are discrediting plausible answers to every blank question asked here because you believe a student nor a full time working person has any leisure time whatsoever? Really?

If the cctv images were much clearer and they had more they would have more to charge him with and he would have less of a defense. I can answer pretty much every single question.

Has anyone presented an alternative that also fills in all the blanks?

Firstly, I'm saying when would their leisure time have coincided to have met up?

Secondly, it's not necessarily clear cctv images that are required, it's cctv that can fill in or complete the narrative of what happened and who was where.
 
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  • #1,009
Clearly to me, police do not know if she was murdered. They treated it as such not to miss anything. But...if she did drown, as I said before, turning that into murder is going to be very difficult, with the images and witnesses who saw her fall over, etc...jmo. Cause of death is everything in such a case.
Not clear to me. I don't think they would say homicide if it were obvious she'd drowned. I think they'd say suspicious. Even if she had drowned - she was nowhere near water when last seen and, as witnesses have pointed out, was not capable of getting herself to anywhere that would result in her body being found where it was. They'll also clearly point out how vulnerble she was. So she couldn't have accidentally stumbled to the river Hull.

There are other reasons for their statement sounding the way it does. One is that LE may think that PR did not act alone. The things he's been charged with are creepy. Creeps find other creeps. Much easier these days with the internet and dark web.

The police were very keen to find the people shown on the Croda CCTV. In my opinion that seems very significant. Maybe they know it's murder. Maybe they know PR is involved but maybe they don't know if he's the murderer.

Those are just opinions and possible alternative explainations
 
  • #1,010
Not clear to me. I don't think they would say homicide if it were obvious she'd drowned. I think they'd say suspicious. Even if she had drowned - she was nowhere near water when last seen and, as witnesses have pointed out, was not capable of getting herself to anywhere that would result in her body being found where it was. They'll also clearly point out how vulnerble she was. So she couldn't have accidentally stumbled to the river Hull.

There are other reasons for their statement sounding the way it does. One is that LE may think that PR did not act alone. The things he's been charged with are creepy. Creeps find other creeps. Much easier these days with the internet and dark web.

The police were very keen to find the people shown on the Croda CCTV. In my opinion that seems very significant. Maybe they know it's murder. Maybe they know PR is involved but maybe they don't know if he's the murderer.

Those are just opinions and possible alternative explainations

I'm not sure how "who did it" would have a bearing on how the investigation was classified? Would it not be a murder investigation no matter who did it ..or even if they had no idea who did it ?
 
  • #1,011
I'm not sure how "who did it" would have a bearing on how the investigation was classified? Would it not be a murder investigation no matter who did it ..or even if they had no idea who did it ?
Possibly, I really don't know but I'm looking for some rationale for what they've said. I really don't think their choice of words means they're clueless.

Homicide is death caused by someone else - either murder or manslaughter. That choice of word must mean they are sure her death could not, in any circumstances, be described as accidental . I assume that means her killer can't say she'd accidentally fallen into water even if he'd pushed her or chased her.

So their apparent reticence must have other reasons. Means of death might be difficult - but that didn't mean they aren't sure cause of death is homicide. I don't think the circumstances of that abduction would be manslaughter. Rapists leave victims alive.

But that's just my opinion based on a tendency to think that words are carefully chosen and that professionals were err on the side of caution. But I could be really wrong in that
 
  • #1,012
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  • #1,015
Possibly, I really don't know but I'm looking for some rationale for what they've said. I really don't think their choice of words means they're clueless.

Homicide is death caused by someone else - either murder or manslaughter. That choice of word must mean they are sure her death could not, in any circumstances, be described as accidental . I assume that means her killer can't say she'd accidentally fallen into water even if he'd pushed her or chased her.

So their apparent reticence must have other reasons. Means of death might be difficult - but that didn't mean they aren't sure cause of death is homicide. I don't think the circumstances of that abduction would be manslaughter. Rapists leave victims alive.

But that's just my opinion based on a tendency to think that words are carefully chosen and that professionals were err on the side of caution. But I could be really wrong in that

If for example the suspect had taken her to the park and put her in a dangerous position say? frightened her into running away whereby she fell in the river ...or in a struggle he pushed her into the water..both could be manslaughter
So it is possible to launch a homicide enquiry without a clear cause of death on PM ..imo
 
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  • #1,016
If for example the suspect had taken her to the park and put her in a dangerous position for example frightened her into running away whereby she fell in the river ...or in a struggle he pushed her into the water..both could be manslaughter
So it is possible to launch a homicide enquiry without a clear cause of death on PM ..imo
I think in those cases the potential for the accused to get off by claiming he didn't chase or frighten her are quite high. Even with arguing that he would be responsible for putting her in danger. Though I agree LE could still term it homicide with that scenario.

Personally I think that her state would make it far too easy for a chunky bloke like PR to overcome / keep hold of her and prevent her trying to escape in the first place (another reason I'm dubious about the sex attack gone wrong scenarios - he wouldn't need to accidentally kill to subdue). And I think her state and the weather conditions would have made it difficult for her into run to a banked river

So I wonder if the word homicide suggests that they know she was already dead when placed in water. I still can't shake the notion that PR had an accomplice which might make the place she was left more problematic.

But those are just opinions and are, I admit, based on hoping LE can clearly get justice for Libby and get those responsible off the streets
 
  • #1,017
Really interesting thanks

This indicates that Homicide investigations can get downgraded which indicates just because a homicide investigation is launched does not mean they are 100% sure homicide occurred
Or perhaps that they are 100% sure homicide occurred but can't prove it to the levels required.
 
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  • #1,019
If for example the suspect had taken her to the park and put her in a dangerous position say? frightened her into running away whereby she fell in the river ...or in a struggle he pushed her into the water..both could be manslaughter
So it is possible to launch a homicide enquiry without a clear cause of death on PM ..imo

Sure they would investigate. But short of video or confession...what one thinks might have happened is not enough.
 
  • #1,020
Or perhaps that they are 100% sure homicide occurred but can't prove it to the levels required.

Then it would be a murder/homicide inquiry, period. Plenty of murders never reach the level of proof as to who did them, but there is no ambiguity about whether they were murders or not.
 
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