UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Alyce]

Because he was the last person to be with her when she died, because he removed her from a place where she was vulnerable but alive and took her to a place where she died, because he has a known background of being a risk to women then she's in his company and dies, because all of the forensic evidence puts no one else with her only him, right up to the point she died

Thank you Lucy, I was trying to put that into words, that describes my thoughts perfectly.

 

[JosieJo]

Another poll :

Will he take the stand?

My gut says yes as I think he still believes he can talk his way out of it

Really don't know on this at the min I'm
55% yes
45% no

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I worry about taking exerts that fit from expert witnesses and ignoring others ..it doesn't sit well with me
Eg ..the pathologist said quite clearly he could not give a cause of death

Prosecution had him say she could have been asphyxiated
Defence had him say she could have drown

To me personally no help at all ...im not about to try and read between the lines and say ..well he meant this or you could tell by his words he meant that

I know what you mean, but this is how I'm reading it:

The pathologist said there were some signs that could be associated with asphyxiation but it couldnt be confirmed.

The pathologist said there were no signs of drowning but it couldnt be ruled out.

For me the scales tip heavier with the positive evidence.

 

[Winterbells]

Listen to the prosecutors opening statements. Read between the lines of the expert witnesses. Libby was vulnerable. PR a sex offender. He prowls the area for hours . Stalks her. Takes her to a park. Rapes her. Goes back at high tide.

Witnesses hear screams. Witnesses see him leave AFTER the screams stop. She doesn't show signs of drowning and tho it cannot be discounted the expert who has dealt with these cases for years say it would NOT be his likely conclusion.

Another expert says had she been alive she would not have instantly died of hypothermia on falling in a river fully conscious. She doesn't scream on falling into this river despite having screamed earlier.
His expert analysis allows time to drown. Yet no signs.

His analysis of her body temp from evidence does not suggest she was cold enough to die just to be impaired

The rapist then lies to police constantly.

How much evidence do you think is missing cos that really looks like beyond all reasonable doubt to me. She would not be in that river if PR had left her. In all likelihood she'd be starting her first job. Moving into her first non student house. Living with get boyfriend.

I'm aware of each and every detail and I have no doubt that he's guilty, but a jury has to have hard evidence to convict someone of murder. And it's worrying that these experts aren't able to give definite answers to the very important questions that would help them make their decisions.

 

[Joolz1975]

I've said the same thing many times over, other posters have said the same thing many times over.

I'm struggling to come up with a way to say it in a way that sinks in or makes sense.

Pathologist - Libby did not drown.

Some posters - but how do we know PR put Libby in water?

Me - because Dead, dying or unconscious people cannot walk or crawl to get themselves in the water.

Some posters - maybe she wasn't dead or unconscious so able to get to the water?

Me - but if she was alive, conscious or unconscious she would have been breathing - if you are in a river AND breathing and eventually end up dead - you will show signs of drowning - you will have water in your lungs and or stomach = signs of drowning - Pathologist - Libby did not drown

And round and round again.

I'm absolutely NOT saying that you or anyone can't have an opinion or a theory that differs from mine orcany other but, if you put it here and it doesn't make sense or someone disagrees then I and other posters will be absolutely valid in politely explaining to you why we disagree.

@wilkela I have empathy for you because you appear to not understand or not want to accept that Pawel IS responsible for Libby being dead.

If you took a fish out of water and put it on the floor and walked away - it would die and you would be at fault even though you walked away and didn't plan to kill it or didn't kill it with your hands - it can't get itself back into the water- it's still dead and it's still your doing.

Maybe he found her dead when he went back the second time and disposed of her body? Not defending him as I think he is responsible but i dont think the evidence is very clear cut either way if I am honest.

 

[Alyce]

Another poll :

Will he take the stand?

My gut says yes as I think he still believes he can talk his way out of it

Always difficult, if pleading not guilty, for the accused to then not give evidence in his ( or her ) own defence.

I know Judge will tell Jury to disregard his absence from the witness box, but I would think that is hard to do. Why would a person not want to speak up, if they are not guilty. Language should not be a problem or excuse for him, he has a translator available.

I really can't call whether he will or not, but I definitely hope that he does.

 

[Offaly]

Another poll :

Will he take the stand?

My gut says yes as I think he still believes he can talk his way out of it

Yes I think he will. He'll try to show how quietly spoken and how unthreatening he is in manner (his belief). He'll think he can make them see he was concerned about Libby that night and wanted to help her and she trusted him. By the way the part about him smirking and laughing during questioning makes me so irate. I truly hope he gets his just punishment.

 

[Winterbells]

I don't think he'll take the stand. And I hope for Libby's family's sake he doesn't. Their lives don't need to be made even more unbearable.

 

[JosieJo]

I know what you mean, but this is how I'm reading it:

The pathologist said there were some signs that could be associated with asphyxiation but it couldnt be confirmed.

The pathologist said there were no signs of drowning but it couldnt be ruled out.

For me the scales tip heavier with the positive evidence.

I agree to an extent in relationto tipping the scales...though by the pathologist also stating she could have drown gives reasonable doubt ..it was quite interesting reading all the different press write ups last night they were quite variable on their write up ..different from whatever snippets the hull tweets state

 

[JosieJo]

Thanks for all the updates..defence will be interesting next week

 

[Skigh]

Another poll :

Will he take the stand?

My gut says yes as I think he still believes he can talk his way out of it

Am not sure,he is brazen ,but also a coward. He will not be able to answer with no comment.

 

[LucyRocket]

Of course, you're right, but I'm concerned that a jury might not convict on probabilities alone.

They have to. That's how the justice system works. It's not reasonable to make up that she might have died in any other way. She was in the hands of a deviant sexual predator who has taken her to a secluded location. It's well beyond the bounds of reason to imagine she might have had some other very unlucky coincidence happen upon her for which there is 0 evidence

 

[LucyRocket]

As the prosecution case has finished there must not have been anything else of interest on his computer or phone.

Damn, no blue face moment

 

[Winterbells]

It's not reasonable to make up that she might have died in any other way.

This has really helped me to see how a jury could convict on the evidence thus far presented. I'd been thinking along the lines of 'how can they say that the evidence for guilt is beyond reasonable doubt when even the experts have doubts about what took place?' but when you put it the other way round, ie. 'how can you reason that she died at the hands of someone other than PR?' it all seems so much simpler. This gives me hope. Thank you @LucyRocket

 

[Winterbells]

...he is brazen ,but also a coward

So true. And so weird.

 

[LucyRocket]

I'm aware of each and every detail and I have no doubt that he's guilty, but a jury has to have hard evidence to convict someone of murder. And it's worrying that these experts aren't able to give definite answers to the very important questions that would help them make their decisions.

I was on my tiptoes on the top of the fence in the Lindsay Birbeck trial, and if I had to make a decision, I would have said they couldn't convict. But they did. None of the background. None of the motives. None of the prior offending. None of the witness statements to say his behaviour fit. None of the opportunity. A smaller perpetrator with a larger, not vulnerable victim. No evidence of any pre-meditation, targeting, stalking. There is WAY more in Pawel's case.

 

[Skigh]

Yes I think he will. He'll try to show how quietly spoken and how unthreatening he is in manner (his belief). He'll think he can make them see he was concerned about Libby that night and wanted to help her and she trusted him. By the way the part about him smirking and laughing during questioning makes me so irate. I truly hope he gets his just punishment.

The good think is the jury have also heard about him laughing and smirking and that could have raised feelings of anger and repulse in them too.

 

[JusticeDT]

The good think is the jury have also heard about him laughing and smirking and that could have raised feelings of anger and repulse in them too.

I bet they felt exactly like we felt when we read that plus they have her parents in court

 

[Vera_dci]

Evil man pushed victim to suicide attempt after 'horrifying' rape

Victim 'drank herself into oblivion' after evil tenfoot rape

Rapist prowled streets leaving bloodied woman slumped in alley after attack

The MO of this guy is so similar to PR. Same area Beverly road/ Newland avenue too. Cant find a date for his arrest.

 

[Vermont24]

14:19
'I recognised him as the same man'
The woman continued: "I got scared and I had my phone and sent a message to a chat my housemates were on and told them. I was scared, he kept looking at me.”

The woman said her friend ran downstairs and shouted out of the door and the man had gone to the end of the dead end street and when she tried to take a picture he “turned back around.”

She said: “He ran at us, passing through a wide gap to the side of us, shouting ‘f*** off” at us."

The woman later recognised the man to be Relowicz.

Libby Squire trial live: Expert on her chances of surviving in river

This incident was certainly well reported and known in the local community at the time of it taking place. The image was widely shared.