UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Newthoughts]

Again, as I’ve said previously in other threads, you seem incapable of someone having a different opinion to yours and it seems to make you angry and try to belittle others opinions of this. I gave my answer to a question asked by a poster.

Previous convictions represent a character picture, not whether he’s guilty of murder. The jury will have that reiterated to them by the judge.

They also won’t be able to speculate on outside influences like we have on here. A perfect example of this is yourself saying “he went back at high tide” on pretty much every post you make.
There is no mention of this in the evidence we have seen, no mention of it in PR search history and various posters have already responded to you and said the part of the river they were at doesn’t suffer with high tide deviations... and yet you still say it in every post as if you have some sort of divine knowledge over the rest of us?

That may come across as a bit of a rant, but the main point I’m trying to make is, if you can not accept others opinion then don’t use an online discussion forum.

I'm so sorry you feel belittled that was not my intention. On an online discussion others will disagree with you - that is not belittling you it is an invitation to say why you disagree. He went back at 2.30 others have said that is high tide if that is inccorrect I will stop. But it still doesn't alter the fact he went back at 2.30.

And actually having seen the pictures and videos of the river - your informing me that it doesn't change that much at that point has made me think that it is even less likely she could have gotten sufficiently into it to be carried away and increased, IMO, the likelihood she was placed there.

My opinion changes with consideration of all the evidence. But it is based focusing on the whole picture not one fact and then decide on the balance of probabilities not on 99.9%certainty because only PR has that

My opinion is that one piece of uncertainty about cause of death does not alter and outweigh every other fact presented. I would hope any jury would think the same because there are many murder trials where cause of death cannot be ascertained. Where only remains are found.

So not knowing exactly how she died does not change any of the other facts and IMO died not reduce the balance of probability that be killed her below all reasonable doubt. Because nobody is going to get to 99.9% certainty and therefore all you have are probabilities

In consideration of everything - including the lies we know know he's told and his previous offending I think on balance he didn't go back to check she was ok.

 

[Winterbells]

ok I can't explain what I mean ,I don't know how describe edge of river- river bank- that's what I found in google translate it may be wrong word I don't know. we know this river rise and she could lie down enough close to edge so her body could be taken by river tide
she could walk to some point till her body give up it could be by the river in her case.
Like in case people who are lost in big forest or mountain they walk till they can't walk any more and they dying .
I think when he came back after 2h he didnt find her where he left her that's why he was convinced she get up and walked away
I don't know why he came back to the field ,check if she is alive, dead ,rape her again throw her in the river -maybe ,but I still think time was too short for rape ,murder and dispose body during his first visit

I understand what you mean about the river bank, but I don't think it applies in this case. I get the sense that when the tide is high, the river doesn't overflow at the sides, so that anything or anybody could get drawn into it and carried away to sea. I could be wrong, of course.

 

[Newthoughts]

Hi all, only now catching up. Thank you to Jamjim for the updates and anyone else who has contributed links, local info etc. Very much appreciated.

If I was on the jury a couple of things I would be keeping in mind are -

• His previous convictions of stalking, prowling, publicly masturbating to scare women ~ he never ran off when caught out, in fact quite the opposite. He also brushed them off as "silly things" shows he didn't really see any big issue with what he was doing and so was a clear sign of escalating behaviour.
• He had the opportunity to rape Libby in a few other areas; endsleigh park, alleyways, or his car yet he specifically took her to a dark secluded park (with his added knowledge of local CCTV likely knew there was none directly inside the park/fields), a place where he not only visited earlier that evening but in the days before had used a drone to also scope out the area. This for me shows some degree of prior planning beforehand.
• The many different versions of his story: his child scratched his face, his glasses did it, then Libby did it. He told his friend she was not the girl in his car and she tried it on but he rebuffed her, he told the police it was libby in his car and she took her knickers off (from what we've heard from other witnesses she could barely stand up or string a sentence together)
• His behaviour and demeanor in police interviews. "I have seen girls like that before on nights out" girls like that, for me is very telling as to how he views women. Then the smirking...he was enjoying himself, he was enjoying reliving it, part of the thrill for him is actually being caught!
• They are both on CCTV entering the park but only he is seen leaving. The witness said he saw a man walking quickly after the screams stopped. Why would Libby suddenly stop screaming if she still felt in danger? Because I think she had been subdued when he left. Whether he intended to kill her or accidentally did it during rape...he did not try to get her any help.
• Cleaning his car too, this i believe was to get rid of any evidence, hair, fibres, mud on tires from park area.
• I think parts of his story are sprinkled with elements of really happened but he has manipulated his version to suit his defense. I think yes from what we've heard Libby was intoxicated, cold, disoriented, upset and crying for her mum, he mentioned a few times about having a wee and Libby needing to be sick ~ i think perhaps libby did get out to be sick and while she was pre-occupied he was exposing himself, perhaps trying to put on a condom but didn't get time (he said wee to cover himself in case CCTV picked up him exposing himself to her), i think once she clocked what happening she ran,or tried to in the state she was in, ending up down by the river when he catches up to her. In overpowering her during the rape she is smothered or unconscious so he then rolls her into the river and runs off. She had a cut to the inside of her lip and not a huge amount of evidence of drowning which for me indicated she was sadly dead or dying when she entered that water and the evidence also suggests this as the most likely outcome.
• If 2 hours later he was generally worried about her, why not anonymously call an ambulance? "Theres a young girl needs help" sort of thing. Why only spend 4 minutes looking for her? (with 2 minutes of that being the time it took to get there & back). Then proceed to masturbate again in the street (in between going home to watch ). He went back to quickly check she had definitely gone and if he had left any evidence behind.

So with all that, it's a big fat GUILTY from me. Whether he will take the stand I'm not sure, he is brazen and cocky enough too and I actually think he would enjoy it. But the language barrier, wearing of a mask means you can't see his whole face (if he is smirking or trying to portray innocence) and his defence will prob advise against it. But I do believe he is an extremely dangerous individual who, given the chance would go straight back out and do it again.

Yes I agree 100%

 

[wilkela]

I understand what you mean about the river bank, but I don't think it applies in this case. I get the sense that when the tide is high, the river doesn't overflow at the sides, so that anything or anybody could get drawn into it and carried away to sea. I could be wrong, of course.

ah ok ,i didn't know that I thought it rise its level (I'm not river tide expert) well it little bit messing with my vision ;-)
anyway I still think she could fell into river and die there (as autopsy didn't excluded drowning) and river current could take her body away
I only get my knowledge from photos online and I thought high tide makes river level rise like for example in this article High tide River Dee Feb 1 2014
I just had look here and it has something to do with level of the water https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/coast-and-sea/tide-tables/3/175#2021-01-24

for me if the level rise from 2,5, to 6m it will make difference on the river bank but I accepting if I'm wrong

 

[Sooty]

One little thing that occurred to me in the wee hours (couldn’t sleep!)

The prosecution has brought a witness regarding Pawel cleaning his car - suggesting forensic awareness. However, he also uses the same car as a locker room for his criminally obtained perverted sex trophies which, through DNA link him directly to said criminal activities.
Perhaps he really isn’t very bright at all, or perhaps it really was just a coincidence.

 

[JosieJo]

One little thing that occurred to me in the wee hours (couldn’t sleep!)

The prosecution has brought a witness for the regarding Pawel cleaning his car - suggesting forensic awareness. However, he also uses the same car as a locker room for his criminally obtained perverted sex trophies which, through DNA link him directly to said criminal activities.
Perhaps he really isn’t very bright at all, or perhaps it really was just a coincidence.

Thats a good point...if you are cleaning the car in fear of being caught why leave all that evidence in the boot

 

[mrazda71]

Hello to everybody on this thread I am a new poster writing my very first post although I have been browsing through Websleuths for a few years now. I am from Poland. I am just wondering how come police got hold of PR? Did someone inform them about their suspicions about him? Or was he a person of interest because of his earlier incidents?

Hello and Welcome

I think probably because there is lots of cctv of his car in the area she was last seen alive in and cctv of her getting in/being put into his car.

 

[Dotta]

One more thing regarding his "smirking/laughing" My first thought was not of his arrogance but quite the opposite: terror. Nervous laughter/giggling occur in tense situations. It is involuntary. I still remember my giggling at school during exams

 

[mrazda71]

Thats a good point...if you are cleaning the car in fear of being caught why leave all that evidence in the boot

Because it wasn't evidence of anything to connect him to Libby.

Because they're his most treasured possessions and he can't bear to part with them.

Because he didn't really think he was going to get caught.

Maybe the car cleaning wasn't for fear of police but fear of his wife saying 'who's hair is this in your car? It's not mine! Who have you had in here?

 

[mrazda71]

One more thing regarding his "smirking/laughing" My first thought was not of his arrogance but quite the opposite: terror. Nervous laughter/giggling occur in tense situations. It is involuntary. I still remember my giggling at school during exams

I agree with you on this, I'm a nervous laugh person too but, I don't think even I would be laughing nervously if I was under police interview being asked if I'd raped and murdered someone, then only replying 'no comment'.

 

[Winterbells]

ah ok ,i didn't know that I thought it rise its level (I'm not river tide expert) well it little bit messing with my vision ;-)
anyway I still think she could fell into river and die there (as autopsy didn't excluded drowning) and river current could take her body away
I only get my knowledge from photos online and I thought high tide makes river level rise like for example in this article High tide River Dee Feb 1 2014
I just had look here and it has something to do with level of the water https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/coast-and-sea/tide-tables/3/175#2021-01-24

for me if the level rise from 2,5, to 6m it will make difference on the river bank but I accepting if I'm wrong

I really don't know anything about rivers, either, but I just feel that because this one isn't out in the middle of the countryside, where it can be all wild and natural, but runs right through a huge city, it has to be rendered as 'safe' as possible, so it must have all sorts of barriers and things to stop people just nodding off on the side and ending up floating away into the North sea.

 

[JosieJo]

Because it wasn't evidence of anything to connect him to Libby.

Because they're his most treasured possessions and he can't bear to part with them.

Because he didn't really think he was going to get caught.

Maybe the car cleaning wasn't for fear of police but fear of his wife saying 'who's hair is this in your car? It's not mine! Who have you had in here?

Yes exactly ... the prosecution likely entered it as trying to show fear of being caught by police and forensics but that seems less likely reason based on the boot.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I'm sorry about your friend @Ruthbullock. It sounds like she was suffering terribly. I hope her husband and children received support from professionals after her passing.

I agree with you that libby was vulnerable to the elements that night. Her friends did start driving around the streets looking for her at around 1am. I'd like to think they or someone else would have found her, had she injured herself or was unable to find her way home. As someone mentioned earlier it looked like she was heading in the direction for home when PR intercepted her.

It was many year ago now and they received a lot of support, but at the time it was very shocking. I didn’t express my opinion because I think PR is innocent, far from it. Merely that this is could possibly be one aspect of his defence against her murder.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I really don't know anything about rivers, either, but I just feel that because this one isn't out in the middle of the countryside, where it can be all wild and natural, but runs right through a huge city, it has to be rendered as 'safe' as possible, so it must have all sorts of barriers and things to stop people just nodding off on the side and ending up floating away into the North sea.

You should have a look at all the missing people in York who fell in the river and the fireman who fell in the river in Lewes (in fact the majority of cases I have followed on websleuths the body had been found in a river- stay away from rivers!!!!!)- the rivers tend to have very few barriers even in the very centre of towns.

 

[JosieJo]

You should have a look at all the missing people in York who fell in the river and the fireman who fell in the river in Lewes (in fact the majority of cases I have followed on websleuths the body had been found in a river- stay away from rivers!!!!!)- the rivers tend to have very few barriers even in the very centre of towns.

I still look regularly for the inquest results of the fireman but not found any still

 

[Joolz1975]

You should have a look at all the missing people in York who fell in the river and the fireman who fell in the river in Lewes (in fact the majority of cases I have followed on websleuths the body had been found in a river- stay away from rivers!!!!!)- the rivers tend to have very few barriers even in the very centre of towns.

You can walk straight into the river in my local town. Steps down to it in many places and footpaths with no railings. Luckily the night life in my town is dead (even without covid) so not been any accidents.

Not relating this to Libbys case by the way just an observation on rivers.

 

[Winterbells]

You should have a look at all the missing people in York who fell in the river and the fireman who fell in the river in Lewes (in fact the majority of cases I have followed on websleuths the body had been found in a river- stay away from rivers!!!!!)- the rivers tend to have very few barriers even in the very centre of towns.

Oh, I do agree, they're never safe. All I meant was, I don't get the feeling there's a sort of meadowy bank at each side like in a fairy tale, where you can picnic and doze off and next thing you know, the damn thing has risen and you're floating away. I lived in York and grew up on Tyneside, so I know people fall in, jump in, get pushed or thrown into rivers no matter where they are. I just don't see that Libby could have fallen unconscious on the side of the river and got sucked into it, is all, really.

 

[elliefant]

One little thing that occurred to me in the wee hours (couldn’t sleep!)

The prosecution has brought a witness regarding Pawel cleaning his car - suggesting forensic awareness. However, he also uses the same car as a locker room for his criminally obtained perverted sex trophies which, through DNA link him directly to said criminal activities.
Perhaps he really isn’t very bright at all, or perhaps it really was just a coincidence.

Great thought Sooty.

Interesting that he presumably wasn’t concerned about his wife finding his treasures; I guess perhaps only he ever opened the boot.

Yes exactly ... the prosecution likely entered it as trying to show fear of being caught by police and forensics but that seems less likely reason based on the boot.

I think it still works as evidence of him lying to police about things in that timespan though (his stated date of car wash vs neighbour’s witness statement of date).

 

[Winterbells]

You should have a look at all the missing people in York who fell in the river and the fireman who fell in the river in Lewes (in fact the majority of cases I have followed on websleuths the body had been found in a river- stay away from rivers!!!!!)- the rivers tend to have very few barriers even in the very centre of towns.

Oh, I do agree, they're never safe. All I meant was, I don't get the feeling there's a sort of meadowy bank at each side like in a fairy tale, where you can picnic and doze off and next thing you know, the damn thing has risen and you're floating away. I lived in York and grew up on Tyneside, so I know people fall in, jump in, get pushed or thrown into rivers no matter where they are. I just don't see that Libby could have fallen unconscious on the side of the river and got sucked into it, as @wilkela was thinking could have happened, is all, really.

 

[Vera_dci]

I dont think anyone has been condescending on here in all honesty. Id like to think of it as a healthy debate. I think written words can easily be misinterpreted as being confrontational.
If I've offended anyone on here that was not my purpose. We all see the world through different eyes, which is why juries are made of men and women from different walks of life.
I've been baffled at times during this case like many as the timing in the park was really tight for rape and disposal ........but not impossible as the prosecution pointed out. The cause of death was inconclusive but the expert pointed out that subtle forms of asphixation would not be obvious.