UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Vermont24]

This incident fell off his charge sheet but it's worth visiting again for a fuller picture of PR's offending - particularly if you haven't seen the accompanying sketch before:

The 'ridiculous' E-fit which helped to catch Pawel Relowicz

 

[Vermont24]

The croda cctv showed four people.
The key CCTV which could hold clues to Libby's homicide investigation

The people on Croda CCTV aren't in the park

 

[Dotta]

PR didn't avoid being caught on CCTV entering the park with Libby or leaving alone, so how did anyone else get in and out without a trace?

Well I imagine there are entrances to the park not covered by CCTV. If there were other people involved in drugs there they surely have their own secret spots in this park and ways out. It just when I hear of somebody entering a seedy place at night I immediately see a red flag indicating CRIME

 

[Vera_dci]

Granted they are not ' in' the park but they are coming from the direction of the park on a pathway that runs along side the boundary of the park .

 

[mrazda71]

Well I imagine there are entrances to the park not covered by CCTV. If there were other people involved in drugs there they surely have their own secret spots in this park and ways out. It just when I hear of somebody entering a seedy place at night I immediately see a red flag indicating CRIME

From previous cases - yes there may well be other ways into the park but these potential 'other people' have to get there somehow and they would be caught on cctv at some point near the area.

Not sure I'd consider a park at night as being 'seedy' and we haven't heard that it's a hotspot for drug dealing ... perhaps some of the locals can give an opinion?

 

[tigerowl]

I have a friend who lives in Shrewsbury and I know it quite well. We're also close to York. Both places have quite a history of people falling into their rivers as they run directly through town. It's hard to explain, if you are picturing city centres rivers like that, how inaccessible the river Hull actually is. We do have people falling in, or disappearing after possibly taking a tumble on a drunken walk home home - but they really are rare and usually involve one of the bridges. The banks are almost all overgrown and muddy. There are sometimes paths but even these run a couple of metres away from the river bank.

Getting to the river in most areas is not easy. That is the reason I mentioned earlier in this thread that I think the 7.5 mins is really pushing it for him to have got her in there and done everything else.

I will clarify that I do think he is responsible for Libby's death but I think it will be tough to prove murder and putting her in the river on everything that has been put forward so far.

 

[Miss_French]

The croda cctv showed four people.
The key CCTV which could hold clues to Libby's homicide investigation

In Oak Road, not entering or leaving the park.

 

[Vermont24]

Granted they are not ' in' the park but they are coming from the direction of the park on a pathway that runs along side the boundary of the park .

Exactly. I had to make that clear because there was a lot of confusion previously. Knowing the area, and the locations of the CCTV which caught PR arriving at the park, it's very likely that the 'Croda Four' never entered the park but rather just walked along Oak Road, either from the direction of Beresford Avenue or from its beginning way up Beverley Road by the Cross Keys pub.

 

[tigerowl]

Re it being seedy - it's not really a 'park'. It's more known locally as Oak Road Playing Fields. There is a rugby club at one end and there is a small kids bit near the area that PR parked. It's a series of bits of land that run behind the housing in that area all along the riverbank.

In the summer time you will get gangs of kids or students drinking in there. There is possibly drug dealing but I don't know it locally as a hotspot for that and I only live 5 mins away. In the winter, it's not really very appealing.

 

[Vermont24]

I have a friend who lives in Shrewsbury and I know it quite well. We're also close to York. Both places have quite a history of people falling into their rivers as they run directly through town. It's hard to explain, if you are picturing city centres rivers like that, how inaccessible the river Hull actually is. We do have people falling in, or disappearing after possibly taking a tumble on a drunken walk home home - but they really are rare and usually involve one of the bridges. The banks are almost all overgrown and muddy. There are sometimes paths but even these run a couple of metres away from the river bank.

Getting to the river in most areas is not easy. That is the reason I mentioned earlier in this thread that I think the 7.5 mins is really pushing it for him to have got her in there and done everything else.

I will clarify that I do think he is responsible for Libby's death but I think it will be tough to prove murder and putting her in the river on everything that has been put forward so far.

Between the playing fields and the northern part of the city centre, it runs through an industrial area and is often behind fenced business premises. There are areas you can reach it around Air Street, for example, but it's not until closer to the centre that you can walk immediately alongside it for any real distance.

 

[Miss_French]

Well I imagine there are entrances to the park not covered by CCTV. If there were other people involved in drugs there they surely have their own secret spots in this park and ways out. It just when I hear of somebody entering a seedy place at night I immediately see a red flag indicating CRIME

So PR enters and leaves the park by a main entrance and is on CCTV, then people either find a body and decide to put it in the river, or he contacts people by an encrypted message (otherwise it would have shown up in his records) to dispose of a body, they sneak in and out of the park unseen and PR goes back via the main entrance and is on CCTV again. Why the latter action?

 

[Dotta]

From previous cases - yes there may well be other ways into the park but these potential 'other people' have to get there somehow and they would be caught on cctv at some point near the area.

Not sure I'd consider a park at night as being 'seedy' and we haven't heard that it's a hotspot for drug dealing ... perhaps some of the locals can give an opinion?

Maybe I should have used "creepy"? My point is his visits to dark gloomy park at night indicates something nefarious. I doubt it was his first visit there at night. Did he meet somebody there? Just musing

 

[Vera_dci]

I appreciate that these people more than likely had nothing to do with libbys murder. I cant remember reading which cctv caught PR entering the park for his third visit?

 

[Ruthbullock]

Oh, I do agree, they're never safe. All I meant was, I don't get the feeling there's a sort of meadowy bank at each side like in a fairy tale, where you can picnic and doze off and next thing you know, the damn thing has risen and you're floating away. I lived in York and grew up on Tyneside, so I know people fall in, jump in, get pushed or thrown into rivers no matter where they are. I just don't see that Libby could have fallen unconscious on the side of the river and got sucked into it, is all, really.

Nor do I, but I do think there is a possibility she was stumbling, running away and whilst screaming, disorientated and looking back to make sure she wasn’t being followed it is very easy at that bank to misstep into it with one foot before reaching the very edge of the bank and you would potentially fall in. I keep having to catch up on several days worth of discussion. The witness who heard the screams gave us a timescale , how does that fit with the timescale of PR being in the park. If we assume those screams were LS, then she was alive at that point- so my question, I suppose, is what gap in time was there between the last scream and the running man and does that equal enough time to have reached the riverbank, dispose of the body and be running away?

 

[Mommysleuth11]

This incident fell off his charge sheet but it's worth visiting again for a fuller picture of PR's offending - particularly if you haven't seen the accompanying sketch before:

The 'ridiculous' E-fit which helped to catch Pawel Relowicz

When I looked again at this I was of the impression it didn't fall off the charges as such but was indeed one of his "not guilty" pleas that was left to lie on file. Was this Malvern avenue, boxing day? I missed it at the time of his first trial and only noticed it very recently, I think perhaps because I was looking for Ella st?

 

[Vermont24]

When I looked again at this I was of the impression it didn't fall off the charges as such but was indeed one of his "not guilty" pleas that was left to lie on file. Was this Malvern avenue, boxing day? I missed it at the time of his first trial and only noticed it very recently, I think perhaps because I was looking for Ella st?

You may be right there. Either way, he wasn't charged. And yes, you've got the right location - Malvern Avenue, Ella Street.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

Sorry not to try to be pedantic, rather clarify in my own mind. I believe he was charged and indicted on it, simply not convicted as he entered a not guilty plea in court. His plea was allowed/accepted and it remained to "lie on file" rather than have a full trial for the 2(?) charges he didn't plead to given it wouldn't have made too much difference to his eventual sentence.

 

[Winterbells]

Nor do I, but I do think there is a possibility she was stumbling, running away and whilst screaming, disorientated and looking back to make sure she wasn’t being followed it is very easy at that bank to misstep into it with one foot before reaching the very edge of the bank and you would potentially fall in. I keep having to catch up on several days worth of discussion. The witness who heard the screams gave us a timescale , how does that fit with the timescale of PR being in the park. If we assume those screams were LS, then she was alive at that point- so my question, I suppose, is what gap in time was there between the last scream and the running man and does that equal enough time to have reached the riverbank, dispose of the body and be running away?

I think the witness who heard the screams said he heard screams, then he went to the loo, then looked out of the window and saw a man hastily walking out of the park (PR). If Libby was screaming whilst running away from PR, all the way to the river, and then killed, the impression I get from the prosecution's version is that there was enough time for PR to run out of the park, then hastily walk to his car, yes.

 

[LucyRocket]

This incident fell off his charge sheet but it's worth visiting again for a fuller picture of PR's offending - particularly if you haven't seen the accompanying sketch before:

The 'ridiculous' E-fit which helped to catch Pawel Relowicz

I didn't realise they'd done ID parades. That's of no significance to this case btw. It's just funny how you can do hours of reading and then years later come across an article with one little detail you didn't know

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I'm gonna add in my thoughts here as I have spent some time catching up.
I believe the jury will find Guilty on both counts.
I believe he was ultimately responsible for whatever happened to Libby.
I'm not 100% convinced in my own mind he is responsible for her murder, although I think it is likely he is.

Before the trial began I would have said I was more than 100% sure he did it.
Due to that 7.5 minutes timescale, that has really messed with my thinking.
The prosecution in their opening suggested that was "more than enough time". I was expecting some kind of scenario that illustrated just why and how they believed this, yet nothing has been offered. I expected more forensic evidence from the prosecution but despite all those many man hours of searching the park/playing fields, river bank and river it actually turned up nothing useful in terms of evidence.
.uch of the forensics relate to his previous crimes and although interesting in terms of who PR was I don't find any of it particularly useful in proving that he murdered Libby. As much as I want to believe it was him, be absolutely sure, I have doubts. Yes it seems the most likely scenario in terms of circumstantial but for me I don't believe it is proven. I just can't make the timescale fit and I don't see the 4 minute window as particularly useful to do anything other than a quick check around.

PR is a very dangerous offender who should never be free to walk our streets again, but is he a murderer, well that's up to the jury to decide and I do not envy them.