UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[mrjitty]

I agree. Suicide is not reasonable in my opinion. Women after a traumatic rape don't typically immediately commit suicide, perhaps days, weeks, or months later. But not immediately after. In that moment you're in survival mode. My thought is, had she been conscious and alive, she would have left the park and scene of the attack - not went to the waters edge and passed out.

I discussed this with my sister who is a traumatic rape survivor (similar situation - she had also been drinking to same extent as Libby, was similar age, and it was mid winter and snowy) to help me understand frame of mind in such a terrifying time.

Yes I think neither scenario makes sense

If suicide - then likely not immediate and you'd chose a better spot. Throwing yourself in that part of the river doesn't really suggest a quick and painless death.

If accident, then why wouldn't you just get out?

 

[Ruthbullock]

I think the witness who heard the screams said he heard screams, then he went to the loo, then looked out of the window and saw a man hastily walking out of the park (PR). If Libby was screaming whilst running away from PR, all the way to the river, and then killed, the impression I get from the prosecution's version is that there was enough time for PR to run out of the park, then hastily walk to his car, yes.

Just went back and had a read, you are right, he didn’t say he heard screams after the toilet- but heard the first screams at 12.14 for between six and seven minutes, then went to the toilet, then carried on looking out of his window for another three or four minutes and then saw a man running out of the park. I wonder how this fits with the yeast factory CCTV, it’s possible it doesn’t and the yeast factory evidence is being used by the defence (and that is why it’s been mentioned, but not by the prosecution). Absolute speculation on my part.

 

[Cherwell]

The prosecution has brought a witness regarding Pawel cleaning his car - suggesting forensic awareness. However, he also uses the same car as a locker room for his criminally obtained perverted sex trophies which, through DNA link him directly to said criminal activities.
Perhaps he really isn’t very bright at all, or perhaps it really was just a coincidence.

The bag of trophies had no connection with Libby, so he probably never gave it a thought. It may just not have occurred to him that they might incriminate him for separate offences.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

Just to add, after seeing the cctv of Libby so unsteady on her feet, literally zigzagging along the road. I am unsure how that stands with her even attempting to "run" away in at ORPF.

 

[Winterbells]

Just to add, after seeing the cctv of Libby so unsteady on her feet, literally zigzagging along the road. I am unsure how that stands with her even attempting to "run" away in at ORPF.

I agree.
I find it hard to make out much in that video (and it makes my laptop freeze) but does the zig-zagging coincide with passing traffic? it's just that someone thought they saw that she was sticking her thumb out (i.e. attempting to hitch a lift?)

 

[Vera_dci]

Could he have been in the process of disposing the bag and contents, that's why it's in his boot?

 

[Newthoughts]

Yes exactly ... the prosecution likely entered it as trying to show fear of being caught by police and forensics but that seems less likely reason based on the boot.

IMO I would clean my car thoroughly if I'd just committed a crime. I wouldn't clean it when it's very cold. . Maybe he was worried because it was muddy?

Perhaps he expected to have more time to remove the stuff from the boot? Perhaps he didn't realise everything would be investigated because he did say there was no evidence of Libby in the boot?

 

[JosieJo]

IMO I would clean my car thoroughly if I'd just committed a crime. I wouldn't clean it when it's very cold. . Maybe he was worried because it was muddy?

Perhaps he expected to have more time to remove the stuff from the boot? Perhaps he didn't realise everything would be investigated because he did say there was no evidence of Libby in the boot?

There are a lot of perhaps there ..all possible...but all I know is most people "if" they were cleaning the car "forensically" in case police coming for them ...and this is the only reason ...wouldn't keep those "things" in their car for a further second...no matter how treasured or important...it puts doubt on any claim of "he knew the police were coming for him" ...this is the only theory I'm referring to here ..no other scenario..and of course I'm not suggesting this is or was a definitive claim ...just thinking out loud

 

[JosieJo]

I'm gonna add in my thoughts here as I have spent some time catching up.
I believe the jury will find Guilty on both counts.
I believe he was ultimately responsible for whatever happened to Libby.
I'm not 100% convinced in my own mind he is responsible for her murder, although I think it is likely he is.

Before the trial began I would have said I was more than 100% sure he did it.
Due to that 7.5 minutes timescale, that has really messed with my thinking.
The prosecution in their opening suggested that was "more than enough time". I was expecting some kind of scenario that illustrated just why and how they believed this, yet nothing has been offered. I expected more forensic evidence from the prosecution but despite all those many man hours of searching the park/playing fields, river bank and river it actually turned up nothing useful in terms of evidence.
.uch of the forensics relate to his previous crimes and although interesting in terms of who PR was I don't find any of it particularly useful in proving that he murdered Libby. As much as I want to believe it was him, be absolutely sure, I have doubts. Yes it seems the most likely scenario in terms of circumstantial but for me I don't believe it is proven. I just can't make the timescale fit and I don't see the 4 minute window as particularly useful to do anything other than a quick check around.

PR is a very dangerous offender who should never be free to walk our streets again, but is he a murderer, well that's up to the jury to decide and I do not envy them.

I'm so with you on these thoughts ..its not definitive evidence that will get him on murder its circumstantial evidence, his past convictions and a balance of probability combined with a desire to not want this man back on the streets

 

[Cherwell]

There are a lot of perhaps there ..all possible...but all I know is most people "if" they were cleaning the car "forensically" in case police come from ...and this is the only reason ...wouldn't keep those "things" in their car for a further second...no matter how treasured or important...it puts doubt on any claim of "he knew the police were coming for him" ...this is the only theory I'm referring to here ..no other scenario..and of course I'm not suggesting this is or was a definitive claim ...just thinking out loud

I don't think for a moment that "he knew the police were coming for him". I think he was solely intent on removing anything that might show traces of Libby - just in case.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I agree.
I find it hard to make out much in that video (and it makes my laptop freeze) but does the zig-zagging coincide with passing traffic? it's just that someone thought they saw that she was sticking her thumb out (i.e. attempting to hitch a lift?)

Slightly later on, I saw the footage of her leaving Wellesley Ave, this is when she appears to put her arm out then cross over the road.

Where she is really zigzagging, one side to the other is when she leaves the bench area, up towards the endsleigh centre, just before PR intercepts her,

 

[Cherwell]

Just to add, after seeing the cctv of Libby so unsteady on her feet, literally zigzagging along the road. I am unsure how that stands with her even attempting to "run" away in at ORPF.

As far as alcohol goes, shock or fright can sober a person up very suddenly. I think it's the adrenaline. So I would say yes, a person who was very drunk could in those circumstances be capable of running away.
Whether that would still be the effect on someone who was also hypothermic, I couldn't say.

 

[JosieJo]

I don't think for a moment that "he knew the police were coming for him". I think he was solely intent on removing anything that might show traces of Libby - just in case.

Totally agree ...I was just referring back to earlier conversation across the thread that seemed to take some evidence as "he knew she was dead and knew cctv etc so knew police would come"

 

[JosieJo]

Yes I think neither scenario makes sense

If suicide - then likely not immediate and you'd chose a better spot. Throwing yourself in that part of the river doesn't really suggest a quick and painless death.

If accident, then why wouldn't you just get out?

I'm not convinced at all that already being hypothermic for some time ..then plunging accidentally into ice cold water it would be as easy as .."just get out" it would be reasonable to believe there would be some effect on her co ordination and strength etc

 

[Vermont24]

I've just got home from a walk around the playing fields and river. Nothing massive, but I'll share some thoughts and images once the kettle has boiled. For ease of quoting and discussion, I'll do it across a few posts.

 

[Cherwell]

Totally agree ...I was just referring back to earlier conversation across the thread that seemed to take some evidence as "he knew she was dead and knew cctv etc so knew police would come"

To be clear, I don't suppose he thought in terms of the pink bag and its contents being incriminating - he probably thought he could pass it all off as being his and his wife's.

 

[Skigh]

I've just got home from a walk around the playing fields and river. Nothing massive, but I'll share some thoughts and images once the kettle has boiled. For ease of quoting and discussion, I'll do it across a few posts.

Shall put my own kettle on ready to read your posts. Thank you in advance for taking the time and effort to do this and share with us.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Shall put my own kettle on ready to read your posts. Thank you in advance for taking the time and effort to do this and share with us.

Me too!

 

[Dotta]

I wonder if Defence will bring in PR's mental health. I have read that he was suffering from depression those days. So here is a depressed man with low self esteem caused by his deviancy. He never before sought physical contacts with women he accosted.

 

[Sooty]

To be clear, I don't suppose he thought in terms of the pink bag and its contents being incriminating - he probably thought he could pass it all off as being his and his wife's.

did he attempt to? I can’t remember what he said about it in the interview.