UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Ruthbullock]

If I recall correctly, I don't think the top she was wearing was posted. The only things replicated were 'leather jacket, a black denim skirt, and black sneaker-style shoes.' Therefore, the 'black sports bra' that she was found wearing may have been the only top she was wearing under her jacket, rather than as underwear. Almost like a black crop top vest? Not sure if any knows of anything different or can work out what she was wearing from cctv?

The clothes missing Libby was wearing the night she disappeared

It was a black long sleeved top and leather jacket

 

[martenwearer]

It was a black long sleeved top and leather jacket

Fantastic! Thank you

 

[Ruthbullock]

Mr Alford says he was looking out of the window for “three or four minutes” before he saw a “male walking off the park.”

He said: “He was walking in a manner where he wasn’t looking behind, asserting where he wanted to go, like he wanted to get off the park.

“When I first saw him, he was walking off the park with his head straight forward and moving with an urgency and then he left.”

When questioned by defence barrister Oliver Saxby QC, Mr Alford said he was certain of the time that he had woken up, but that he had not heard anyone getting into a car after seeing the man leaving the fields.

I think I misunderstood/ got confused by thread discussion, what Mr Alford said when discussing what he heard and saw. He wasn’t seen running, but walking away in the park and didn't hear a car engine start either.
Libby Squire trial told of 'desperate screams' at playing fields

 

[Ruthbullock]

Under cross examination by defence barrister Oliver Saxby QC, Dr Lyall agreed that the pathological examination did not establish that she was killed - only a series of possibilities of how she might have died.
Libby Squire trial hears more details of how Hull student died
I think by looking at the live timeline- I may have missed lots of snippets in the main articles, mainly the defence questioning, also because as I catch up I skim so apologies if already talked about.

 

[Cherwell]

Mr Alford says he was looking out of the window for “three or four minutes” before he saw a “male walking off the park.”

He said: “He was walking in a manner where he wasn’t looking behind, asserting where he wanted to go, like he wanted to get off the park.

“When I first saw him, he was walking off the park with his head straight forward and moving with an urgency and then he left.”

When questioned by defence barrister Oliver Saxby QC, Mr Alford said he was certain of the time that he had woken up, but that he had not heard anyone getting into a car after seeing the man leaving the fields.

I think I misunderstood/ got confused by thread discussion, what Mr Alford said when discussing what he heard and saw. He wasn’t seen running, but walking away in the park and didn't hear a car engine start either.
Libby Squire trial told of 'desperate screams' at playing fields

That's right, but the live updates did mention running.

Mr Alford lived in a property that backed on to Oak Road playing fields when Libby disappeared.
He says he spoke to police about “screams” he heard and the man he saw running away from Oak Road.
Libby Squire trial live: Expert on her chances of surviving in river

I took this as also indicating direction, but I now think we need to treat the HDM reports with caution.

 

[Ruthbullock]

That's right, but the live updates did mention running.

Mr Alford lived in a property that backed on to Oak Road playing fields when Libby disappeared.
He says he spoke to police about “screams” he heard and the man he saw running away from Oak Road.
Libby Squire trial live: Expert on her chances of surviving in river

I took this as also indicating direction, but I now think we need to treat the HDM reports with caution.

The reports are often linked at a later time, but include far more details. I can’t find your quote in the timeline to put it in context, the only part I could find it was the prosecution presented it on day one or two as that when stating their case. However when mr Alford was in court, he didn’t appear to say that. As they are both from the same newspaper I don’t think it calls for us reading with caution- but perhaps linking to the main articles rather than the snippets published in real time might give us some aspects that we have perhaps missed, or just caught the summary of.

 

[Cherwell]

The reports are often linked at a later time, but include far more details. I can’t find your quote in the timeline to put it in context, the only part I could find it was the prosecution presented it on day one or two as that when stating their case. However when mr Alford was in court, he didn’t appear to say that. As they are both from the same newspaper I don’t think it calls for us reading with caution- but perhaps linking to the main articles rather than the snippets published in real time might give us some aspects that we have perhaps missed, or just caught the summary of.

It's at the link I gave. You need to click on the "Screaming lasted four to seven minutes" tab under "Key Events"

 

[Loobyloo]

How about this @Loobyloo?
Backcountry Science: Why Don’t Streams Freeze in Winter?

That helps a lot, thank you

 

[Officer Dibble]

Mr Alford says he was looking out of the window for “three or four minutes” before he saw a “male walking off the park.”

He said: “He was walking in a manner where he wasn’t looking behind, asserting where he wanted to go, like he wanted to get off the park.

“When I first saw him, he was walking off the park with his head straight forward and moving with an urgency and then he left.”

When questioned by defence barrister Oliver Saxby QC, Mr Alford said he was certain of the time that he had woken up, but that he had not heard anyone getting into a car after seeing the man leaving the fields.

I think I misunderstood/ got confused by thread discussion, what Mr Alford said when discussing what he heard and saw. He wasn’t seen running, but walking away in the park and didn't hear a car engine start either.
Libby Squire trial told of 'desperate screams' at playing fields

Interesting about not hearing a car engine start.

3 or 4 minutes staring out of the window in the early hours of the morning is quite a long time in reality. He must have been really alarmed to keep watch.

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

[QUOTE="Officer Dibble, post: 16584774, member:

3 or 4 minutes staring out of the window in the early hours of the morning is quite a long time in reality. He must have been really alarmed to keep watch.[/QUOTE]

Exactly what I was thinking.

If I had a similar circumstance where something seems unusual but I may feel a bit overdramatic phoning 999, then I would do an online police report. Then the info is available a bit earlier than I would phone it through, if it fits with anything the police know about but I don’t.

Sadly, in this case, I don’t think it would have made any difference.

 

[Loobyloo]

Mr Alford says he was looking out of the window for “three or four minutes” before he saw a “male walking off the park.”

He said: “He was walking in a manner where he wasn’t looking behind, asserting where he wanted to go, like he wanted to get off the park.

“When I first saw him, he was walking off the park with his head straight forward and moving with an urgency and then he left.”

When questioned by defence barrister Oliver Saxby QC, Mr Alford said he was certain of the time that he had woken up, but that he had not heard anyone getting into a car after seeing the man leaving the fields.

I think I misunderstood/ got confused by thread discussion, what Mr Alford said when discussing what he heard and saw. He wasn’t seen running, but walking away in the park and didn't hear a car engine start either.
Libby Squire trial told of 'desperate screams' at playing fields

He does say 'moving with an urgency', though, so it could have been a very fast walk.
As for not hearing a car engine, this was probably a quieter less piercing sound than the earlier screams, so it may not have carried as far as the house (especially if the window was closed).

 

[mrazda71]

I absolutely would and have, multiple times called police, sometimes 999, sometimes 101.
Sometimes they've found nothing, sometimes it's been something - one time I got woken up by a distant male voice shouting for help, turns out, he was trapped between his van and the school railings (never did work out how the heck he managed that!) another time a young lad had hung himself and we heard the person who'd found him screaming for help. I didn't find out until the next day that the 'dead man' was a friend of my daughters, her year 11 prom date actually and was just 19.

My point is - call. Always call ... the police need you to because each call gives vital intelligence and sometimes, I've been the only person to bother calling - I saw the next day people posting on fb 'did you hear screaming last night' but the didn't do anything.

I don't place blame on the shoulders of anyone other than Pavel Relowicz at all but, if any one of the people who stopped to help her had called 999/101 then she'd have probably spent a night in a cell or A&E at worst and been very embarrassed the next day instead of dead.

 

[Offaly]

I was thinking about the view from the back of The Lodge, the house in which it seems a witness lived. Walking back from the river, I used the wholly unscientific methodology of 'If I can see the window, the window can see me'. Obviously foliage changes from season to season and year to year, but I suspect the line of sight from the back bedroom window is something like the attached image. It's not panoramic, but coming from the direction of the river and abandoned buildings, you'd be in view for a period regardless of which exit you were taking either side of the (locked) car park.

Crikey, the river is much nearer the entrance than I pictured in my head. I believe the 7.5 minute time period is definitely doable.

 

[Offaly]

Just because the screams were moving, doesn't mean the screamer was moving by themselves - he could of picked her up and been carrying her.

She must have been terrified, in that dark park with someone trying to attack her - stuff of nightmares.

 

[Newthoughts]

This is what makes it a viscous cycle of buts for me ... if there was obvious/substantial signs of drowning then I'd accept that that might be the case (him leaving her ad her stumbling into the river) but, from experience of many cases, when a pathologist gives their testimony it often won't be the black or white that we'd all like, instead the answer is grey - but they do usually er towards dark grey or light grey and in this case I just wasn't convinced that the pathologist thinks that drowning is a real possibility.

Also reading between the lines I don't think he though drowning a real possibility. He spoke a lot about subtle asphyxiation.

We're all going to have doubts but I think they have to be reasonable. For me there is also the fact that Libby doesn't just have to get herself into the river - she has to get in far enough to be washed into the Humber Estuary.

Lots of people have said the river doesn't change much at that point and it twists a lot on its way to see. So I simply cannot see how somebody who an expert has said would struggle to run away before she'd been raped would manage that.

I

 

[Sooty]

Also reading between the lines I don't think he though drowning a real possibility. He spoke a lot about subtle asphyxiation.

We're all going to have doubts but I think they have to be reasonable. For me there is also the fact that Libby doesn't just have to get herself into the river - she has to get in far enough to be washed into the Humber Estuary.

Lots of people have said the river doesn't change much at that point and it twists a lot on its way to see. So I simply cannot see how somebody who an expert has said would struggle to run away before she'd been raped would manage that.

I

what I struggle with from the pathologist, and maybe he was questioned on this by the defence, is that drowning is a form of asphyxiation. How did he come to the conclusion that drowning was unlikely? After 7 weeks in the water her body would be filled with fluids and gases from decomposition and so would be hard to come to that conclusion IMO - I am wondering if the defence can bring in their own expert on this?
Also, @Newthoughts , I’m curious how do you think PR got her body far enough into the water? If someone attempted to throw a dead body into a river from a bank it would likely just drop a short way from their feet. MOO

 

[mrjitty]

The only way I can see this working is if Libby ran from him as soon as she got out the car and made it almost to the river herself - but that doesn't fit with the reports of the screaming as she would have probably been too far away for it to be heard in that way. I know it is contrary to what many people think, but I think she might have been in such a state after the rape that she ended up in the river somehow by herself.

RSBM

The witnesses houses directly overlook the crime scene. At that time of night, in the quiet, I can see how those sounds are easily heard myself.

 

[Ruthbullock]

It's at the link I gave. You need to click on the "Screaming lasted four to seven minutes" tab under "Key Events"

Thanks found it, at 11.36, it’s amended at 11.59 in that section and removes the running part and repeats walking in quotation marks- which suggests the first part introducing the witness was just a summary introduction by the prosecutions lawyer, the 11.59 is directly quoting from his testimony in court that day- he perhaps was questioned over the running and changed it to walking purposefully.

 

[JosieJo]

Crikey, the river is much nearer the entrance than I pictured in my head. I believe the 7.5 minute time period is definitely doable.

530 meters according to prosecution

 

[Newthoughts]

Interesting about not hearing a car engine start.

3 or 4 minutes staring out of the window in the early hours of the morning is quite a long time in reality. He must have been really alarmed to keep watch.

It could be that his location was closer to the screams than the car? Screams would be louder anyway.