UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Skigh]

how you came to conclusion I suggested she chooses die slowly?
I don't think so it was her choice ,it could be accident not intentional act
she could by accident fell into water when she was trying get out of this field ,she could be not able go any further she could lie down by riverbank and die there and river stream could take her body away

If she lay down by the river bank she would not be in the water.

 

[mrazda71]

I said I'm not convinced he killed her and throw her to the river on this point -in my opinion is not hard evidence he did it .
when other facts comes up I will accept without sadness that it is what happened
you don't need to be "empathetic "(I think it is wrong word ) I'm not treating this case personally
I found news about his wife on her facebook profile it wasn't difficult to find but I will not share link ,you can try find yourself ;-)

I have seen the profile but I'm not a Facebook friend of hers so all I can see her profile photo and almost nothing else, that's why I was curious.


Edited to add - my empathy was not because I think you are personally connected to him but because I too have been following cases where I just could not see what everyone else was seeing and why they all thought the person was guilty and I could not.

You already stated in your early post that you had no connection to him so why would I doubt that. I'm sorry you have taken offence, none was intended.

 

[Happygirlie2003]

Guilty of murder
This case makes my stomach churn, poor Libby and her family enduring all of this horrific detail is truly devastating

 

[mrjitty]

I will be very interested to see what the defence version is

How do they explain what took place that nite, given the accused's statements?

Personally i won't engage in exculpatory versions that the defence does not make, or which the accused never said happened.

 

[Newthoughts]

I said I'm not convinced he killed her and throw her to the river on this point -in my opinion is not hard evidence he did it .
when other facts comes up I will accept without sadness that it is what happened
you don't need to be "empathetic "(I think it is wrong word ) I'm not treating this case personally
I found news about his wife on her facebook profile it wasn't difficult to find but I will not share link ,you can try find yourself ;-)

I'm very happy that she's escaped and found a new partner. His last court case in 2019 must have been a nightmare for her - realising what sort of person she'd been living with. This one must be even worse. She's a mother herself.

Tho I must admit that I didn't think posting info from FB pages of people connected to the accused was allowed on here? Is that right?

 

[Chambo1994]

What do think we've heard so far that points to accidental death?

I personally can't see anything accidental about it so I'm hoping someone can help me see a different perspective.


Edited to add - yes, there is ALWAYS stuff that comes out after the guilty verdict and leaves us all with our chins on the floor! I dread to think what that will be in this case ...

Its not the jury’s job to gather evidence for the version they choose, they are there to decide whether he did what the charges say, in this case murder.

So putting myself in the shoes of a juror I don’t see enough evidence to prove guilt of murder yet. No cause of death, no explanation of how she got in the water, no clear signs of murder on autopsy.

So it’s not about having evidence of accidental death or suicide, it’s NOT having enough evidence on murder.

To give a guilty verdict you have to effectively be 99.9% sure of guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

Sometimes as a forum we do need to take a step back and remember the jury have a job and a duty, we are all personally invested in it and want him to be found guilty so sometimes we can overlook or underestimate pieces of evidence.

There is still a long way to go in this and hopefully more convincing evidence is forthcoming!

 

[JosieJo]

I will be very interested to see what the defence version is

How do they explain what took place that nite, given the accused's statements?

Personally i won't engage in exculpatory versions that the defence does not make, or which the accused never said happened.

Yes will be very interesting...im thinking he may try the .."I've decided to come clean and tell truth" card
Some version thar puts libby near the river when he left her

 

[mrazda71]

Its not the jury’s job to gather evidence for the version they choose, they are there to decide whether he did what the charges say, in this case murder.

So putting myself in the shoes of a juror I don’t see enough evidence to prove guilt of murder yet. No cause of death, no explanation of how she got in the water, no clear signs of murder on autopsy.

So it’s not about having evidence of accidental death or suicide, it’s NOT having enough evidence on murder.

To give a guilty verdict you have to effectively be 99.9% sure of guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

Sometimes as a forum we do need to take a step back and remember the jury have a job and a duty, we are all personally invested in it and want him to be found guilty so sometimes we can overlook or underestimate pieces of evidence.

There is still a long way to go in this and hopefully more convincing evidence is forthcoming!

Thank you for your reply.

I am open minded to hearing the defence next week but, don't think it will change my mind.

Breathing people in water drown.
Non breathing people cannot put themselves in the water.
I just can't see a way around these basic facts.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

On January 13, 2019, the woman was at home at midnight when she saw two hands come through the letterbox and Relowicz's face again. The woman shouted "For f**** sake" and stood up but Relowicz left.

She has had two letterboxes ripped out of her door in the time she has lived in her home. Prosecution believe a significant degree of planning went into the act.

IMO : Im unsure if he set out to purposely murder Libby but the above is why I think he is capable of murdering. Its quite a violent act to rip out letter boxes with your bare hands. To me it says he was getting frustrated he could not get to the victim. I think he became frustrated with libby in the park that night. Its clear she fought back and was trying to alert someone for help by screaming. IMO He silenced her in anyway he could in order to fulfill his own needs ......and that is murder.

Every twisted act committed by sexual predator Pawel Relowicz

I wish I had linked this article when I mentioned he had stalked a women for 18 months as all the information in contained here in the MSM link.
She had been his neighbour (in Raglan st) and had given him the WiFi password when he moved in. Later in Chester Avenue (after moving) where he committed several offences, in summer of 2017, then December 2018 and January 2019. There were obviously more incidents between hence ripping out 2 letterboxes during that time.

Sorry if this is out of place as I haven't caught up on todays proceedings yet and have been "unable" to share my thoughts in recent days.

 

[Skigh]

Thank you for your reply.

I am open minded to hearing the defence next week but, don't think it will change my mind.

Breathing people in water drown.
Non breathing people cannot put themselves in the water.
I just can't see a way around these basic facts.

I agree fully with you.

 

[C.greek]

Forgive my ignorance but how is it possible for the trial to last 6 weeks when the prosecution finished their case in 5[edit:6] days?

 

[Skigh]

Forgive my ignorance but how is it possible for the trial to last 6 weeks when the prosecution finished their case in 5 days?

Good question. Most trials I have followed have given a time span far greater than the trial actually lasted for. Perhaps it is to allow for unseen delays or the jury to take longer than expected to reach a verdict. I am not expecting the defence to take more than a week,could be less.
Then the summing up for a day or so.

 

[Newthoughts]

Its not the jury’s job to gather evidence for the version they choose, they are there to decide whether he did what the charges say, in this case murder.

So putting myself in the shoes of a juror I don’t see enough evidence to prove guilt of murder yet. No cause of death, no explanation of how she got in the water, no clear signs of murder on autopsy.

So it’s not about having evidence of accidental death or suicide, it’s NOT having enough evidence on murder.

To give a guilty verdict you have to effectively be 99.9% sure of guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

Sometimes as a forum we do need to take a step back and remember the jury have a job and a duty, we are all personally invested in it and want him to be found guilty so sometimes we can overlook or underestimate pieces of evidence.

There is still a long way to go in this and hopefully more convincing evidence is forthcoming!

You have to be sure beyond all reasonable doubt. You'd have to have been there to be 99.9% certain.

I think beyond all reasonable doubt is more than satisfied by the evidence. It is far too difficult to see any other outcome if a dangerous sexual predator stalks and rapes a vulnerable girl that ends up dead.

 

[Chambo1994]

You have to be sure beyond all reasonable doubt. You'd have to have been there to be 99.9% certain.

I think beyond all reasonable doubt is more than satisfied by the evidence. It is far too difficult to see any other outcome if a dangerous sexual predator stalks and rapes a vulnerable girl that ends up dead.

You’ve answered against your own point there without realising...

Can you give me one solid reason backed by evidence that says any of the other outcomes aren’t possible?

All the evidence we have seen so far confirms the rape 100%, do any of them guarantee murder? I don’t think so

There are weeks of this trial left, but the original question was what I think in the mind of the jury right now...

 

[HongKongPhooey]

You’ve answered against your own point there without realising...

Can you give me one solid reason backed by evidence that says any of the other outcomes aren’t possible?

All the evidence we have seen so far confirms the rape 100%, do any of them guarantee murder? I don’t think so

There are weeks of this trial left, but the original question was what I think in the mind of the jury right now...

This is often the case though. In Lindsay Birbeck's trial, there was no evidence of RP being seen to kill her. You could argue that his story of a stranger paying him to move her body was a viable alternative outcome. I mean, I wouldnt, but you could. Thats an example of a jury deciding on the most likely outcome.

 

[Newthoughts]

You’ve answered against your own point there without realising...

Can you give me one solid reason backed by evidence that says any of the other outcomes aren’t possible?

All the evidence we have seen so far confirms the rape 100%, do any of them guarantee murder? I don’t think so

There are weeks of this trial left, but the original question was what I think in the mind of the jury right now...

What other outcomes are remotely likely?

A dangerous sexual predator prowls a student area. stalks and rapes a vulnerable girl in a freezing cold park that he has chosen near a river. Returns to the scene of the crime at high tide before prowling around again.

He leaves the scene after she has finished screaming. The expert says drowning would NOT be his likely explanation tho it cannot be excluded because there are no signs.

His previous record suggests dangerous behaviour escalating.

I'd say the odds are very much against him. Because she didn't get herself to that park. I'd say it's beyond all reasonable doubt and that is the bar.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

This is often the case though. In Lindsay Birbeck's trial, there was no evidence of RP being seen to kill her. You could argue that his story of a stranger paying him to move her body was a viable alternative outcome. I mean, I wouldnt, but you could. Thats an example of a jury deciding on the most likely outcome.

Good example HKP, and there have been other verdicts which have pleasantly surprised us. Hold that thought.

 

[JosieJo]

This is often the case though. In Lindsay Birbeck's trial, there was no evidence of RP being seen to kill her. You could argue that his story of a stranger paying him to move her body was a viable alternative outcome. I mean, I wouldnt, but you could. Thats an example of a jury deciding on the most likely outcome.

Its an awful thought really...having to decide on which version is more likely...when in reality neither could be true

 

[motherofdaughters]

Straw poll? On the jury, guilty or not guilty?

It's guilty for me at this point.

Based on current evidence and gut feeling aside I’d have to find not guilty of murder

 

[mrazda71]

If you think not guilty of murder - how do you think Libby died?