UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Tortoise]

I woner why we haven't heard from the other two witnesses to screaming -

"Other witnesses heard screams
Relowicz was told about two other statements from people living in Claremont Avenue.

He was told the two witnesses described how they had their bedroom windows open and heard screams coming from the playing fields.

The officer said: “They said they heard three periods of screaming.”

Relowicz said: “I want her to be found. I’ve never been so honest in my life like I have been like this.

“I have said everything.”
Pawel Relowicz told police he 'wanted Libby to be found' - trial

 

[JosieJo]

Autopsy didn't exclude asphyxiation either!

She was screaming she was silenced minutes before PR left the scene according to a witness. And she was raped. That does sound suspicious to me.

If I had to weigh the two unknowns with no other evidence I'd say the screaming stopping and the process of raping someone would push me towards asphyxiation.

Also somebody has now firmly pointed out to me the river does not change much at that point. Having looked at the videos that were posted earlier of the river of that point, IMO it would be very difficult to fall into it and to be washed away and not caught on reeds or in the mud.

That would be compounded for me by the critical care expert's evidence detailing how difficult she would find it to run away? Do you not think so?

the balance of all other evidence and looking at the video footage of the river I think it highly unlikely that she could have gotten herself into the river unaided.

Then we also have to explain why PR did not say anything about being a near the river and the fact he returned.

For me ...even though its the only evidence we have ...the screaming stopping doesn't automatically mean she was dead or unconscious at this point..she could have been sobbing...crying out but not loud screams or just purely frightened to make a noise to give indication of her whereabouts in case he came back.
Yes it definitely would follow the path of asphyxiation and him running away ...but for me personally I dont think death or unconscious is an automatic given ...but of course we do not know what version the defence will present yet so pure discussion only

 

[Sooty]

There would have been earlier interviews when he was arrested for the offences of which he was subsequently convicted. I am theorising that this would have come as a complete surprise to him, and that when he was cleaning the car he was only concerned with getting rid of any evidence of Libby.

But we are overwhelmingly insisting that his sexual offending is intrinsically linked together with Libby. By saying he separated some episodes of his sexual offending from others, we are creating a disconnect for him with Libby and those other offences.

My apologies, I have struggled to word this clearly, hopefully you follow.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I'm really not sure, but my gut says no. There's the far treeline at the end of the playing fields and gradient of the embankment to take into consideration. I think anything happening by the river could only possibly be captured by CCTV belonging to the factories and units on the opposite bank.

Thank you! Seeing these images makes me feel it would be hard to run and stumble into the river. It looks like you would have to run through a tree area and through brush and foliage. I imagine someone who is disoriented would trip and fall, maybe more than once, and end up just laying there and dying from the elements but that is not what happened. Libby was found weeks later headed out to sea. IMO someone had to put her in the river. Someone who knew the area and would know a good spot. MOO

 

[JosieJo]

Finally, two pictures of the river from today. You're more likely to see petroleum barges than people punting on the Hull. It's an industrial river, particularly within the city itself.

Yeast factory with blue dome. The abandoned buildings and 'top left' of the pond are immediately to my right in the same picture.

The second picture is looking in the opposite direction, away from the city centre/Humber estuary.

Great info thank you

 

[JosieJo]

Thank you! Seeing these images makes me feel it would be hard to run and stumble into the river. It looks like you would have to run through a tree area and through brush and foliage. I imagine someone who is disoriented would trip and fall, maybe more than once, and end up just laying there and dying from the elements but that is not what happened. Libby was found weeks later headed out to sea. IMO someone had to put her in the river. Someone who knew the area and would know a good spot. MOO

I think it would depend where the attack happened there is a clear run up to the river bank ..if you were to head toward distant lights

 

[JosieJo]

I wonder why the yeast factory didn't pick up any activity on the river bank ? Nothing at all ? Not even shadows etc

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Is this from the earlier trial? I suppose when it came down to it, he decided outright denial was his best policy.

I had to go back to this because I believe this was from when PR was being questioned about Libby’s disappearance. It may have been used as evidence in his first trial but this evidence came about after he was questioned about Libby. His car was searched and the pink holdall and it’s contents were found. That is how he was tied to the other crimes. At least this is how I remember. MOO

 

[Miss_French]

That would be compounded for me by the critical care expert's evidence detailing how difficult she would find it to run away? Do you not think so?

How much grip would Libby have running in Vans on icy/muddy ground?

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, but we have heard from a witness that there were screams that sounded in different places as though someone was moving (I can't remember the exact wording) so one could draw an inference from that.

I do understand that, but it is not the defence case that this happened. Either one draws the inference he put her in the river, or it is not guilty.

I don't believe it is the role of the jury to speculate an exculpatory version, that the defence itself (which knows the truth) does not make.

 

[JosieJo]

I do understand that, but it is not the defence case that this happened. Either one draws the inference he put her in the river, or it is not guilty.

I don't believe it is the role of the jury to speculate an exculpatory version, that the defence itself (which knows the truth) does not make.

But we haven't heard the defence case yet? Is it possible they will?

 

[Alyce]

Apologies this is slightly off topice - but for Josie

Inquest date


Eastbourne Coroner's Court at Town Hall in Eastbourne:
Date Time Name
28/01/2021 10.00am Anthony Knott


Eastbourne Coroner’s Court at Town Hall in Eastbourne:

Date 28/01/2021
Time 10.00am
Name Anthony Knott
Age 33
Date of death 10/01/2020
Place of death Newhaven
Coroner’s office Sarah Cockram

 

[mrjitty]

Finally, two pictures of the river from today. You're more likely to see petroleum barges than people punting on the Hull. It's an industrial river, particularly within the city itself.

Yeast factory with blue dome. The abandoned buildings and 'top left' of the pond are immediately to my right in the same picture.

The second picture is looking in the opposite direction, away from the city centre/Humber estuary.

Thanks for these!

I really don't get the feeling a person commits suicide jumping in here - makes no sense? I get a higher bridge etc

And if she went in by accident - it is not that cold - she can easily recover and get out IMO - otherwise it is a long and awful drowning. But if you can swim at all, you can get to the bank?????

To me it only makes sense that she was put in there unconscious.

 

[mrjitty]

But we haven't heard the defence case yet? Is it possible they will?

To do it, he would have to testify, but I don't think they will do that, as it leads to a weaker case.

 

[JosieJo]

How much grip would Libby have running in Vans on icy/muddy ground?

Vans tread...they are more a "going out trainer" than a sports type

 

[JosieJo]

To do it, he would have to testify, but I don't think they will do that, as it leads to a weaker case.

How do you think the prosecution saying "we now believe he will claim he had sex with her" ..fit with whats to come?

 

[Mommysleuth11]

@Vermont24 from your photos the river is looking pretty full at that point. You can see there is very little room (perhaps a foot) between the water and the top of the grass bank, you can also see the grass disappearing into the water in places. I would be really interested to see how much variation happens. I may have to see if I can spot a low tide time to visit myself and try to grab some timings too. From your visit today did you feel the 7.5 minutes times were or were not possible, just your personal feelings?
Excellent posts today, thank you for taking the time out.

 

[JosieJo]

Thanks for these!

I really don't get the feeling a person commits suicide jumping in here - makes no sense? I get a higher bridge etc

And if she went in by accident - it is not that cold - she can easily recover and get out IMO - otherwise it is a long and awful drowning. But if you can swim at all, you can get to the bank?????

To me it only makes sense that she was put in there unconscious.

I really don't think suicide is a likely theory either

 

[mrjitty]

How do you think the prosecution saying "we now believe he will claim he had sex with her" ..fit with whats to come?

I think the defence will simply have to roll over on the prosecution evidence on that front which proves he did have sex with her.

Instead counsel will just speculate that even if that evidence is accepted, there is no proof he put her in the river, or how she died.

 

[Vermont24]

@Vermont24 from your photos the river is looking pretty full at that point. You can see there is very little room (perhaps a foot) between the water and the top of the grass bank, you can also see the grass disappearing into the water in places. I would be really interested to see how much variation happens. I may have to see if I can spot a low tide time to visit myself and try to grab some timings too. From your visit today did you feel the 7.5 minutes times were or were not possible, just your personal feelings?
Excellent posts today, thank you for taking the time out.

I'm tall and a fast walker, and it would only take me a couple of minutes to reach the river from the entrance nearest the car park. The other entrance, the 's-gate', is a little further away.

7.5 mins is enough time to incapacitate and sexually assault someone, but little else in all probability. I don't think she entered the river until the third visit.