UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Miss_French]

Vans tread...they are more a "going out trainer" than a sports type
View attachment 280767

Thanks, but it was a rhetorical question!

 

[mrjitty]

@Vermont24 from your photos the river is looking pretty full at that point. You can see there is very little room (perhaps a foot) between the water and the top of the grass bank, you can also see the grass disappearing into the water in places. I would be really interested to see how much variation happens. I may have to see if I can spot a low tide time to visit myself and try to grab some timings too. From your visit today did you feel the 7.5 minutes times were or were not possible, just your personal feelings?
Excellent posts today, thank you for taking the time out.

That is my feeling as well - even if you accidentally ran/slipped in - it doesn't look very hard to get to the bank and get yourself out?

 

[Newthoughts]

One more thing regarding his "smirking/laughing" My first thought was not of his arrogance but quite the opposite: terror. Nervous laughter/giggling occur in tense situations. It is involuntary. I still remember my giggling at school during exams

I know exactly what you mean but I think if you read up on his other crimes (and the judges summing up after his first trial here makes interesting reading) I don't think it is nerves IMO. If you can find the witness statements he a seems alarmingly unstressed .

Also a websleuther attended his early court appearances before those charges were taken to trial, which would have been stressful, and said he was fairly emotionless.

Plus I think the police probably have a lot of experience in judging what is nervous laughter

https://www-hulldailymail-co-uk.cdn...news/pawel-relowicz-jailed-judge-said-3220311

 

[Vermont24]

That is my feeling as well - even if you accidentally ran/slipped in - it doesn't look very hard to get to the bank and get yourself out?

Whilst 10c may not sound cold in terms of air temperature, water is another matter. Fall into water that cold and you'll quickly find yourself in shock and unable to breathe.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I'm tall and a fast walker, and it would only take me a couple of minutes to reach the river from the entrance nearest the car park. The other entrance, the 's-gate', is a little further away.

7.5 mins is enough time to incapacitate and sexually assault someone, but little else in all probability. I don't think she entered the river until the third visit.

Interesting, thanks for that.

Whereas me, a 5ft nothing, slightly plump lady, even at pace doesn't move particularly speedily.

 

[JosieJo]

Thanks, but it was a rhetorical question!

Sorry ...duh ..misread that!

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Please forgive my rough rendering. I zoomed out on a similar image that @Vermont24 posted. In the oval area I do not see many places where there is a clear run to the river without any trees or brush. One area seems open right at the bend in the river on the left side of the image. I would be surprised if Libby in her state would easily find that area. MOO

 

[Vermont24]

Please forgive my rough rendering. I zoomed out on a similar image that @Vermont24 posted. In the oval area I do not see many places where there is a clear run to the river without any trees or brush. One area seems open right at the bend in the river on the left side of the image. I would be surprised if Libby in her state would easily find that area. MOO

Maybe I should've taken pictures to illustrate this for those not familiar with the area. From the playing fields, you walk through the tree line and then uphill to reach the river. A recent HDM video just about showed this.

 

[Miss_French]

And if she went in by accident - it is not that cold - she can easily recover and get out IMO - otherwise it is a long and awful drowning. But if you can swim at all, you can get to the bank?????

But 'not that cold' is still cold for water, testimony says Libby would have been numb and uncoordinated, and she's potentially wearing a jacket and shoes that would have quickly become waterlogged and hampered her movement.

 

[JosieJo]

Please forgive my rough rendering. I zoomed out on a similar image that @Vermont24 posted. In the oval area I do not see many places where there is a clear run to the river without any trees or brush. One area seems open right at the bend in the river on the left side of the image. I would be surprised if Libby in her state would easily find that area. MOO

Just here by the building where the police activity was

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Maybe I should've taken pictures to illustrate this for those not familiar with the area. From the playing fields, you walk through the tree line and then uphill to reach the river. A recent HDM video just about showed this.

Your pictures are great. And so many other locals have provided great maps and photos. I am just not good at putting maps and photos together! I appreciate all you images!!

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Just here by the building where the police activity was
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Thank you!!

 

[Dotta]

I know exactly what you mean but I think if you read up on his other crimes (and the judges summing up after his first trial here makes interesting reading) I don't think it is nerves IMO. If you can find the witness statements he a seems alarmingly unstressed .

Also a websleuther attended his early court appearances before those charges were taken to trial, which would have been stressful, and said he was fairly emotionless.

Plus I think the police probably have a lot of experience in judging what is nervous laughter

https://www-hulldailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/pawel-relowicz-jailed-judge-said-3220311.amp?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQCrABIA==#aoh=16114193015539&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/pawel-relowicz-jailed-judge-said-3220311

Thank you for pointing that I would really like to hear a psychiatric assessement of that man.

 

[elliefant]

I don’t think it does look easy to get out of that river, and especially if in a compromised state.

 

[Scorpiette]

I think it would depend where the attack happened there is a clear run up to the river bank ..if you were to head toward distant lights

If PR (and his defence team) admit he 'had sex' with Libby, I wonder where he will say that happened? Will he tell the truth? Or not, so as to cast doubt on the timing of the 7.5 minutes window of 'opportunity' for killing poor Libby.
Also, if PR now admits to intercourse with Libby, will he HAVE to take the stand for questioning on this?

 

[Newthoughts]

I'm gonna add in my thoughts here as I have spent some time catching up.
I believe the jury will find Guilty on both counts.
I believe he was ultimately responsible for whatever happened to Libby.
I'm not 100% convinced in my own mind he is responsible for her murder, although I think it is likely he is.

Before the trial began I would have said I was more than 100% sure he did it.
Due to that 7.5 minutes timescale, that has really messed with my thinking.
The prosecution in their opening suggested that was "more than enough time". I was expecting some kind of scenario that illustrated just why and how they believed this, yet nothing has been offered. I expected more forensic evidence from the prosecution but despite all those many man hours of searching the park/playing fields, river bank and river it actually turned up nothing useful in terms of evidence.
.uch of the forensics relate to his previous crimes and although interesting in terms of who PR was I don't find any of it particularly useful in proving that he murdered Libby. As much as I want to believe it was him, be absolutely sure, I have doubts. Yes it seems the most likely scenario in terms of circumstantial but for me I don't believe it is proven. I just can't make the timescale fit and I don't see the 4 minute window as particularly useful to do anything other than a quick check around.

PR is a very dangerous offender who should never be free to walk our streets again, but is he a murderer, well that's up to the jury to decide and I do not envy them.

The only person who can ever be 100% sure is PR. I think for the jury they are asked to be certain beyond all reasonable doubt.

For me I think the whole picture that has been built up of that evening, his lies, the expert evidence and the previous convictions, listed in court taken along side the fact I'm finding it difficult to come up with reasonable alternatives to her ending up in the river that sound more probable means I think I believe he did it beyond all reasonable doubts.

Where I've been faced with doubts about the cause of death I personally have to judge whether those doubts see reasonable. From the circumstances given I think asphyxiation more probable because I cannot see how she would get into that river at that particular location herself. And the act of rape is consistent with asphyxiation.

That's my opinion.

 

[JosieJo]

Thank you!!

I think this is the police activity both sides of that building

 

[JosieJo]

Anyone with legal knowledge....can he have a new statement read out by the defence? A new version of events? A sort of "i want to now tell the truth" statement..withouttaking the stand ..is that allowed? Would it still open him up to cross examination?

 

[Vermont24]

Just here by the building where the police activity was
View attachment 280769

Yes, that works, though it's not the way I went.

The most direct route, the one I've always taken, is to follow the main path from the direction of the car park until you reach the fork, and then continue straight. You can just about make out a clearing in the trees, and that's a well-worn path directly up the embankment and to the river. It even has a gate to limit vehicle access.

 

[Newthoughts]

Anyone with legal knowledge....can he have a new statement read out by the defence? A new version of events? A sort of "i want to now tell the truth" statement..withouttaking the stand ..is that allowed? Would it still open him up to cross examination?

Good question, one I also wanted to know the answer to.

For the legal people: If he now wants to admit to sexual intercourse - at quite a late stage - surely he has to be questioned on it? It wouldn't be fair to allow whatever he says to just stand without querying it surely?