UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[HollyHunter9]

“When you are considering the evidence you should bring your experience of the world and common sense. You are able to draw inferences from the evidence. You will reach your verdicts based on all of the evidence in this case."

Wee nudge by the judge towards the prosecution's version there surely, with that mention of common sense and inference?

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

I thought the same! Sorry didn't see your post until after I posted mine.

 

[Challwood]

I think it’s the same doubt that’s always been there, there’s no evidence to say he did murder her, rape he is 100% guilty but then what happened, did he kill her and throw her in the river? Maybe.. did she run away from him and fall in the river? Maybe, both those would then be his fault so guilty of murder but did he leave her on the road and she wandered to the river and fell in? Also maybe. In which case innocent of murder (in the legal sense, not the moral sense) to me all these scenarios are possibilities and none of them conclusive.

The 12.30 scream time is the biggest issue here.. it’s doubt because it’s agreed fact he left the area at 12.19 so who was screaming at 12.30 if LS was already dead?

Edited to add - the defence haven’t provided any more or any less doubt, just what was always there for me.. I really don’t consider her mental health or suicidal thoughts had any bearing on this, I really don’t think suicide is even remotely something to have considered happened.

From my memory the medical expert said Libby was likely dead or dying when placed in the river. Libby could not place herself dead or dying into the river. Any screams heard past PR initial time of leaving the scene could just mean he raped and left her there in the snow and then placed her into the river when he returned and found her unconscious or dead upon his later return to the scene, after which he was seen wearing wet jogging bottoms. In my opinion he is guilty for her rape and death, whether that be by murder or by her succumbing to the elements after his initial attack. All MOO.

 

[Sarahjo]

Almost afraid to comment as it seems many are beyond convinced and I may be lynched for having an alternative opinion.

I think the defence did a good job, he highlighted points that I wasn't aware if or that had only been very briefly mentioned. For me now besides the issues of timings, defence barrister certainly raised enough doubts that I would be likely to say Guilty of Rape but Not Guilty of murder.

Sorry as much as I am aware this is a highly unpopular opinion and extremely unpalatable to hear, the information raised with regard to Libbys mental state and frame of mind both on that night and before could absolutely be relevant and there is nothing that convinces me we can be sure at all what actually transpired that night.
We can be sure he's a pervert and his intentions towards libby were far from honourable but for me that is all I can be sure on.

Before the trial I would have had him guilty of murder without hearing the evidence, the idea of her simply falling into the river was preposterous to me, hearing the evidence however I sadly feel it cannot be proven to be at PRs hand.

Totally agree with your post, that there’s no solid evidence to say he did murder her.
but now the jury has been told they can consider common sense and inference.. would your common sense or inference of circumstantial evidence change your mind?

 

[jamjim]

15:39
Directions on police interviews

The judge said: “Things not mentioned: Before each interview he was cautioned. As part of his defence he has relied on that that he did not mention.

“He had consensual sexual intercourse with Libby Squire, that she scratched his face when he refused to kiss her. These things as mentioned in the caution may harm his defence as you may draw the conclusion he has tailored his account to the evidence.

“The defence ask you not to draw the conclusion that he did not mention this and rely on his evidence that he did not want his wife to know he had cheated on her.”

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[Ruthbullock]

Can anyone help me with this? I'm thinking about the defence querying SA's timings and testimony. A few days ago I am pretty sure someone posted a link. It was to a newspaper article - I think it might have been the Express - and I am under the impression it was SA and also his father speaking in the article. One of them mentions that the man seen was sprinting at times. I'm just wanting to verify whether this is what I actually read as it seems to be in conflict with what SA stated in court, that the man seen was walking quickly. I have looked back but can't find it and would love to read it again.

Prosecution asked SA if he was running and SA corrected the prosecution and said no he was walking with purpose.

 

[jamjim]

15:41
Jury must consider why Relowicz told lies

During the trial Reolowicz admitted lying about some of the details that night.

Justice Lambert said: “During his evidence he admitted he told a number of lies and said he did not want his wife to know he had cheated on her and what he was up to that night.

"When you’re considering this evidence you must consider why he lied and you must consider that people who are not guilty also lie for other reasons.

"You must not convict him on either offence only because he lied."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[Steve2021]

Sarahjo, you understanfably refer to the 12.30 screams. But it seems Mr Saxby has chosen to prefer this timing to whatever SA said ...I can only assume it's because whatever that was doesn't suit him. I thought he'd argue a defence for each one. Suggests to me unless the jury also go with him on that he may know he's in trouble.

 

[jamjim]

15:44
Judge addresses Relowicz's previous convictions

Justice Lambert said: “You’ve heard about the previous convictions for offences of voyeurism and outraging public decency and you have details in your agreed facts and witness statements.

"You heard he pleaded guilty to those and the prosecution says his previous convictions are relevant to the offence of rape and invite you to dispute that he was acting as a good Samaritan.

“They say that is helps to rebut his account she consented to intercourse and they say it is a coincidence she did that with someone who was looking for an opportunity to commit a sexual offence and the prosecution say for this reason his previous convictions are relevant.

“The defence says there is nothing that suggests his previous convictions show any aggression and violence and are different to the charges he faces in this trial and are therefore not relevant.”

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[PitchforkRed]

Almost afraid to comment as it seems many are beyond convinced and I may be lynched for having an alternative opinion.

I think the defence did a good job, he highlighted points that I wasn't aware if or that had only been very briefly mentioned. For me now besides the issues of timings, defence barrister certainly raised enough doubts that I would be likely to say Guilty of Rape but Not Guilty of murder.

Sorry as much as I am aware this is a highly unpopular opinion and extremely unpalatable to hear, the information raised with regard to Libbys mental state and frame of mind both on that night and before could absolutely be relevant and there is nothing that convinces me we can be sure at all what actually transpired that night.
We can be sure he's a pervert and his intentions towards libby were far from honourable but for me that is all I can be sure on.

Before the trial I would have had him guilty of murder without hearing the evidence, the idea of her simply falling into the river was preposterous to me, hearing the evidence however I sadly feel it cannot be proven to be at PRs hand.

Agreed. Rape - guilty, Murder - not guilty. I have not seen what the jury have seen, I can only go on the facts presented here and in the press. Whilst I believe PR is a disgusting excuse for a human being, and I have the utmost sympathy for Libby and her family, I don't have any emotional attachment to the case, and looking at what we've seen there's just not enough proof for me to convict for murder.

I do think he will be found guilty on both counts though.

 

[motherofdaughters]

One of my friends is a Prison Officer at Hull and he said PR didn’t bat an eyelid when told Libby’s body had been found.
His face remained exactly the same
No expression whatsoever

genuine Q, was he be already in remand at this point? For the other crimes?

 

[jamjim]

15:45
'Put emotion aside and use common sense'

The judge says about CCTV that it is not “always clear.” She said “consider it with the evidence and in conjunction. Be careful not to over-analyse it. It’s not perfect but it’s the best we’ve got.”

She added: “It is perfectly normal for you to feel sympathy for one side but it is your job to put emotion to one side, use common sense and consider the evidence.”

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Go judge!

 

[Mommysleuth11]

Totally agree with your post, that there’s no solid evidence to say he did murder her.
but now the jury has been told they can consider common sense and inference.. would your common sense or inference of circumstantial evidence change your mind?

I'm not sure to be honest. I feel like I would have to make huge leaps on things I simply didn't know to get there.
I feel like all three scenarios of how Libby finally ended up in the river are equally plausible and I would find it extremely difficult to say one was more favourable than the others.

 

[Sarahjo]

From my memory the medical expert said Libby was likely dead or dying when placed in the river. Libby could not place herself dead or dying into the river. Any screams heard past PR initial time of leaving the scene could just mean he raped and left her there in the snow and then placed her into the river when he returned and found her unconscious or dead upon his later return to the scene, after which he was seen wearing wet jogging bottoms. In my opinion he is guilty for her rape and death, whether that be by murder or by her succumbing to the elements after his initial attack. All MOO.

I don’t recall the anyone saying she was dead or dying when she went in the river? It was suggested if PR put her in then she was dead or dying but I don’t think any expert testified she was dead or dying when she entered, I don’t think that could ever be known especially as no expert can agree how she even ended up in the river.

 

[Newthoughts]

15:26
Judge gives jury legal directions

Justice Lambert says she is going to remind the jury of the main aspects of evidence of the case.

She says: “It is your judgement on the facts that matter, not mine. The facts are for you and you alone.

“When you are considering the evidence you should bring your experience of the world and common sense.

"You are able to draw inferences from the evidence. You will reach your verdicts based on all of the evidence in this case."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

Common sense, inferences and all if the evidence sounds like a nudge to the prosecution.

 

[Steve2021]

Seeing how much we've all quite rightly debated the timings, who was it who could be the source of the screams, who is the man seen by SA, aren't you amazed how little time Mr Saxby has spent on this? If it was an open and shut slam dunk case he wouldn't need to, but I don't think any of us found it so.

 

[tedtink]

I don’t recall the anyone saying she was dead or dying when she went in the river? It was suggested if PR put her in then she was dead or dying but I don’t think any expert testified she was dead or dying when she entered, I don’t think that could ever be known especially as no expert can agree how she even ended up in the river.

"Sheffield Crown Court heard it was inconclusive whether she "was alive or not before entering the water"

Libby Squire murder trial: Cause of student's death 'unascertained'

 

[DanCJ]

Almost afraid to comment as it seems many are beyond convinced and I may be lynched for having an alternative opinion.

I think the defence did a good job, he highlighted points that I wasn't aware if or that had only been very briefly mentioned. For me now besides the issues of timings, defence barrister certainly raised enough doubts that I would be likely to say Guilty of Rape but Not Guilty of murder.

Sorry as much as I am aware this is a highly unpopular opinion and extremely unpalatable to hear, the information raised with regard to Libbys mental state and frame of mind both on that night and before could absolutely be relevant and there is nothing that convinces me we can be sure at all what actually transpired that night.
We can be sure he's a pervert and his intentions towards libby were far from honourable but for me that is all I can be sure on.

Before the trial I would have had him guilty of murder without hearing the evidence, the idea of her simply falling into the river was preposterous to me, hearing the evidence however I sadly feel it cannot be proven to be at PRs hand.

Please do not feel afraid to express your opinion, our differing opinions/thoughts and debates are what make Websleuths such a great place to be a part of.

 

[jamjim]

15:50
Looking back on Libby and her battle with mental health issues

Justice Lambert is now recapping on what the jury was told about Libby and her mental health battle.

She said: “You heard statements from her mum and boyfriend. You heard she came from a close family and she did well in her GCSEs but not as well in her A-levels and she became depressed and started to self-harm.

"Her mother said she was always open about how she was feeling but her mother worried and thought she would find her dead in her bedroom.

“When Libby was 15 she was referred to CAMHS and she was open and honest about her self-harm and her mum said she never really thought she would have Libby for the rest of her life and the worst part was between being 15 and 18.

“She took a gap year, travelled and worked in a cafe. Her mother said she worked during that year really hard on her mental health and was in a really good place before going to University and she really enjoyed it."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[Chambo1994]

Common sense, inferences and all if the evidence sounds like a nudge to the prosecution.

Legal professionals are impartial and do not lean or make nods to either side of the case.

This has been previously pointed out when suggesting the pathologists were “leaning toward a cause of death”