UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[Happygirlie2003]

It would be a matter for the defence if they were trying to establish that he was unfit to stand trial, or if he was pleading diminished responsibility or similar. But that's not the case.

Thanks I thought that might have been the case, Im just not convinced there’s not something seriously wrong with him akin with John venables and Robert Thomson when they murdered jamie bulger. I know this case is totally different but I’m not convinced PR woke up in his 20s as a murderer (if he is) there just must be something in his makeup or his past IMO

 

[Dotta]

Nope.

IMO he's a dirty little pervert who raped and murdered a vulnerable young girl.

One doesn't exclude the other, does it? Quite the contrary in my view.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

One doesn't exclude the other, does it? Quite the contrary in my view.

The definition of psychopath suggests there is a mental disorder.

I'm not a fan of labels which infer some kind of excuse for what is IMO simply disgusting behaviour.

But thats just me.

 

[Skigh]

The definition of psychopath suggests there is a mental disorder.

I'm not a fan of labels which infer some kind of excuse for what is IMO simply disgusting behaviour.

But thats just me.

And me.

 

[Cherwell]

Hull is a reasonable sized city and you will find people out and about at all hours of the day and night, Just living life. not every single person conforms to a standard 9/5 job, tea at 6 followed by telly and bed at 10.

If that's meant as a response to my query, of course I understand that and I wasn't suggesting otherwise.
My point was we know PR was at (if not provably in) ORPF. I am just trying to work out what are the chances of another male coming through from the direction of the river at the same time.

 

[porkypies]

Well, of course that's true, but we're not talking about "any time, day or night". We are talking about a specific night at a specific time, a freezing cold night. So I wonder what some of those reasons might be. Don't feel you have to list them all.

I won't chance any more 'off topic' after this:
to visit my mates who are night fishing and have a drink with them,
to look for and photo or record owls or foxes.
to photo the moon reflecting on the water
to walk away from an argument and cool down. alone
to be really alone for a while, away from people.
thought it was a shortcut and got lost.
to feel the freezing cold and sharp night air.
to experience the fear and spookiness so I could write about it.

 

[HLC35]

Thanks I thought that might have been the case, Im just not convinced there’s not something seriously wrong with him akin with John venables and Robert Thomson when they murdered jamie bulger. I know this case is totally different but I’m not convinced PR woke up in his 20s as a murderer (if he is) there just must be something in his makeup or his past IMO

I completely agree. That struck me too that it could stem from his earlier years. Something he’d suppressed for a while. Something that then evolved quite organically, ‘easily’ for him when first acted on. Whether it’s generous to afford him any childhood trauma that may have caused him to do what he has done (charged and possibly accused), he certainly appeared ‘comfortable’ prowling the streets intimidating innocent victims of Hull for 3 years (if not longer?). Jmo. Moo.

 

[Newthoughts]

I just mean that I think it's a public open bit of green space and woodland by the river, and accessible to the public 24/7 there are too many reasons to list here, why someone might be in there any time, day or night, and they don't need to be going somewhere or coming back from somewhere, just a little different from perhaps the majority of people, and not afraid of the cold or dark, but in a big town or city, there will be such residents, totally innocent of all wrongdoing and harmless.

Hmm. But it is quite a coincidence.

 

[Newthoughts]

I won't chance any more 'off topic' after this:
to visit my mates who are night fishing and have a drink with them,
to look for and photo or record owls or foxes.
to photo the moon reflecting on the water
to walk away from an argument and cool down. alone
to be really alone for a while, away from people.
thought it was a shortcut and got lost.
to feel the freezing cold and sharp night air.
to experience the fear and spookiness so I could write about it.

And you don't find it coincidental that this bloke just happens to be strolling thru the dark cold park at the same time as a creep is commiting a crime.

 

[tigerowl]

If that's meant as a response to my query, of course I understand that and I wasn't suggesting otherwise.
My point was we know PR was at (if not provably in) ORPF. I am just trying to work out what are the chances of another male coming through from the direction of the river at the same time.

It was your use of the word 'credible' in the previous post. Like for some reason, a person must justify being out at night minding their own business in a free country. There are countless reasons someone could choose to be out on a cold night. They might have had a row and are cooling off, nature watching, getting home from a friends, having a chill out, they might work nights and be off and it's a normal time for them.

As I said previously, it is unlikely this person was not PR but absolutely not impossible.

 

[Jarvis1969]

And me.

Totally agree with both of you, in my opinion he is a dirty perverted b@@@*rd, I hope he rots in hell, he preyed on woman, he deceived his wife and his sons, Libby did not stand a chance that night with him out on the prowl looking for “ easy sex”, he knew exactly what he was going to do that night. He is a dangerous individual and I hope that he is put away for a very long time and gets the justice he deserves, Im betting as soon as this is over we will hear of other crimes

 

[Dotta]

The definition of psychopath suggests there is a mental disorder.

I'm not a fan of labels which infer some kind of excuse for what is IMO simply disgusting behaviour.

But thats just me.

But sexual deviation is also a mental disorder. But of course it can't excuse criminal behaviour.

 

[Newthoughts]

It was your use of the word 'credible' in the previous post. Like for some reason, a person must justify being out at night minding their own business in a free country. There are countless reasons someone could choose to be out on a cold night. They might have had a row and are cooling off, nature watching, getting home from a friends, having a chill out, they might work nights and be off and it's a normal time for them.

As I said previously, it is unlikely this person was not PR but absolutely not impossible.

No it is not absolutely impossible but we're looking at things that are reasonable and likely.

I mean you could argue Libby was abducted by aliens and placed in the river - it's not likely and it's not reasonable.

 

[Newthoughts]

But sexual deviation is also a mental disorder. But of course it can't excuse criminal behaviour.

I think the issue is choice. Nobody forced him to do what he did. Whatever is wrong with PR he was perfectly capable of making choices.

He chose to rape and murder Libby (and I'm sure beyond reasonable doubt he did). There were so many points on that night he could have stopped and turned away. He could have seen her and chosen not to hurt. Not put her in his car or let her out somewhere, decided not to rape her. And so on.

 

[TreiseOg]

Thank you again for the updates, @jimjam!

My humble opinion on the Defence summing:

1. I'm not so sure that the Defence threw PR under a bus in terms of their reference to the rape charge. I think that there were very limited defence options available, given that PR had already admitted during police interviews and on the stand that sexual contact took place with Libby. Especially given the overwhelming evidence that has her completely intoxicated and not in full faculties that night (witness statements plus CCTV). On the whole, he admitted to having sex with an individual who evidence indicates (in my opinion) was incapable of giving consent.

2. In general, I completely agree that the Defence's choice of focus in terms of suggesting suicide; focusing on Libby's actions etc has been hugely misjudged. The whole tone was completely jarring. I'd be very surprised if at least some members of the jury have been swayed towards a guilty verdict. As much as juries are directed towards evidence, they're also human. That's the reality.

3. My opinion - a much stronger focus would have been to go with an accidental fall into the river. I'm also surprised that Defence didn't attempt to put doubt in the minds of the jury by suggesting another perpetrator (unless he did and I just missed it). Yes, of course anyone can pick holes in both of these versions, but they'd be more believable to the jury IMO.

I know there are those with differing opinions on this thread. I fully respect all of them. They have really made me think!

And I must close by saying again, my heart broke again today reading the summing up when I considered Libby's family. I, too, suffered poor mental health in the past just before and during my student years. It's far from uncommon, and considering some of the poor choices I made, I can't help but feel there but for the grace of God...

I hear all of you on here who have shared your personal stories and I applaud your courage.

 

[Tortoise]

"Locals say the park is always full of youngsters drinking and taking drugs, so unusual sounds tend to be ignored."

Girl heard screaming in park just minutes after Libby Squire vanished

 

[NorthernSoul]

"Locals say the park is always full of youngsters drinking and taking drugs, so unusual sounds tend to be ignored."

Girl heard screaming in park just minutes after Libby Squire vanished

Gosh from the photo on that article it looks as if it would be quite easy to fall in to the river.

 

[C.greek]

From the defence summing up I got the impression that there is not one single piece of evidence that doesn't place PR in the ORPF that night, nor any doubts arising about the 7.5 min timing to commit rape and murder - the placing of the body in the river could then have happened in the next 4.5 min in PR's 3rd visit to the ORPF. So they are in agreement that though the timing is tight it is possible and that the defence know the man seen by SA was PR. i would so much prefer to think that Libby did not experience a horrendous and violent death in his hands, that it was her choice to end her life no matter how tragic for a beautiful bright young girl such as Libby, but sadly I am not convinced. Too many coincidences to fathom for that to have happened. If I were on the jury I would go for guilty on both without having any doubts for sentencing an innocent man.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Gosh from the photo on that article it looks as if it would be quite easy to fall in to the river.

I honestly think if this were the case, the defence would have grabbed at it and run with it.

Of all the straws they clutched, this one didnt stand out from the reporting we heard.

JMO

 

[DiploRed]

- The witness lied about seeing a man in the park

- The witness saw PR in the park

- The witness saw another, unidentified male in the park who would be a vital witness.

Take your pick. I think a lot of people also get stuck on the “accidental drowning” side of things. It’s very easy to look at that and say yeah it’s very possible that happened, but what they keep missing is why was she even near the river to begin with? You just do not walk in there by accident and go all the way across and stumble in to the river.