GUILTY UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #3

[Legally Bland]

I don't think this is likely, but when I was on jury duty the victim was a minor and gave evidence in a pre-recorded video. Maybe the accused can testify like that too. Possibly do that this afternoon?

But my best bet is legal argument.

 

[Angleterre]

Agree, don’t know why it wasn’t offered on the indictment in the first place.

I can’t believe that it wasn’t offered as an alternative on the indictment in the first place, especially considering that it is not a clear cut case where guilt is not really in question and they are going through the motions

 

[Alyce]

It's only a guess but I wouldn't be surprised if the reason for the meeting in chambers was the defence asking the judge to consider dismissing the case for lack of evidence. This does not meet the required standards for prosecution in my opinion.

Deciding to continue the trial at 2pm, after having just said no more until Monday ( which would be start of Defence case ) makes this a likely possibility imo

Editing to say, didnt realise no Jury this afternoon. If that is the case, then I'm now going with legal argument as others have said.

 

[Ann Blyth]

I can’t believe that it wasn’t offered as an alternative on the indictment in the first place, especially considering that it is not a clear cut case where guilt is not really in question and they are going through the motions

It’s puzzling isn’t it? I am surprised that unlawful burial / disposal wasn’t offered along with murder on the indictment, surely the prosecution have got him banged to rights on that offence, it’s what he’s admitting to all along!

 

[Roostercat]

I thought it said she was on Burnley road and not seen past Peel Park Avenue, so that would mean she would walk up it?

Sorry, yes I think I like many others thought she went up by WA rather than peel park but I guess nobody really knows. It is around 6 minutes from where she was last seen on Burnley Road to the steep road near the allotments at top of peel Park avenue, if the sighting of the coat was relevant and belonged to LB, the window of opportunity was very small. Was the sighting of the coat 4.20?

 

[Ann Blyth]

Snipped from earlier reporting above

Mr McLachlan is instructing the jury to refer to their timelines in reference to the interviews which took place on those days, and who was present at the interview stage

I wonder why that is significant ?

I wonder....

 

[Angleterre]

M

Snipped from earlier reporting above

Mr McLachlan is instructing the jury to refer to their timelines in reference to the interviews which took place on those days, and who was present at the interview stage

I wonder why that is significant ?

Maybe there is some contentious issue regarding the interview stage with RM and the Crown has learned some fact that puts this into question re appropriate adult
I’m grasping at straws and it could be anything but it is strange that it is the prosecution that has brought this up and not the defence... if no evidence is heard this afternoon but the case will reconvene then they will possibly be discussing items of a procedural or legal concern or as has been suggested, agreeing to discuss alternative charges and potentially a guilty plea to a reduced charge....
Its not the finest example of a UK Crown Court Trial for WS members internationally to follow because it’s not IMOO as robust and dynamic as trials normally are .

 

[Ann Blyth]

M

Maybe there is some contentious issue regarding the interview stage with RM and the Crown has learned some fact that puts this into question re appropriate adult
I’m grasping at straws and it could be anything but it is strange that it is the prosecution that has brought this up and not the defence... if no evidence is heard this afternoon but the case will reconvene then they will possibly be discussing items of a procedural or legal concern or as has been suggested, agreeing to discuss alternative charges and potentially a guilty plea to a reduced charge....
Its not the finest example of a UK Crown Court Trial for WS members internationally to follow because it’s not IMOO as robust and dynamic as trials normally are .

Agree, a trial in the UK Crown Court system should not look like this trial, and to be fair, doesn’t generally look like this trial, not the CPS finest hour.

 

[Ann Blyth]

M

Maybe there is some contentious issue regarding the interview stage with RM and the Crown has learned some fact that puts this into question re appropriate adult
I’m grasping at straws and it could be anything but it is strange that it is the prosecution that has brought this up and not the defence... if no evidence is heard this afternoon but the case will reconvene then they will possibly be discussing items of a procedural or legal concern or as has been suggested, agreeing to discuss alternative charges and potentially a guilty plea to a reduced charge....
Its not the finest example of a UK Crown Court Trial for WS members internationally to follow because it’s not IMOO as robust and dynamic as trials normally are .

I still think that his appropriate adult wasn’t so appropriate after all......

 

[MusicalMonkey]

Anyone following Lancashire Telegraph? Quite interesting that LB was asking about a dating site The day before. Was she not on a relationship?

It seems Lancs Live and The Telegraph almost intermittently alternate between being detailed and not so detailed.

I think one must follow both.

 

[MusicalMonkey]

I'm wondering if he catfished her?

I'm wondering why there are no Digital Forensics (phone, laptop, tablet etc.).

 

[Legally Bland]

Sorry, yes I think I like many others thought she went up by WA rather than peel park but I guess nobody really knows. It is around 6 minutes from where she was last seen on Burnley Road to the steep road near the allotments at top of peel Park avenue, if the sighting of the coat was relevant and belonged to LB, the window of opportunity was very small. Was the sighting of the coat 4.20?

4.30, they parked up at about 4.20.

He said on August 14 he noticed dog walkers Judith and Martin Bibby on the Coppice. They said the previous day at 4.30pm they saw a jacket on a fence line.
Found Deceased - UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #2

The travelled from Baxenden to the Coppice and arrived at 4.20pm on August 12. They parked at the top of Peel Park Avenue.
They were walking their dog Ralph.
Found Deceased - UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #2

 

[Alyce]

Sorry, yes I think I like many others thought she went up by WA rather than peel park but I guess nobody really knows. It is around 6 minutes from where she was last seen on Burnley Road to the steep road near the allotments at top of peel Park avenue, if the sighting of the coat was relevant and belonged to LB, the window of opportunity was very small. Was the sighting of the coat 4.20?

It was 4.30 pm for the coat sighting - but I agree, still very short window.

Someone said earlier ( may have been you Roostercat, apologies cant find it again in the thread ) that going up to The Coppice by using the cut through between Whitakers and the Funeral Directors would likely be quite muddy on that day ( due to earlier rain ) and not the ideal option. Based on that and the cctv reports from Peel Park Ave ( or lack of ) then it is quite likely, imo, that LB did go up Peel Park Ave.
In which case and if she went through to the Coppice via the car park, then she would literally have missed ZB by a minute or so.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I’m hoping the prosecution have more compelling evidence to show the jury. From what we’ve heard there’s not much definitively linking the accused. I know he has admitted to disposing of Lindsay’s body, but his defence is that someone else killed her. Aside from the question ‘why would you dispose of a body for someone you don’t even know or recognise?’
I’m beginning to think there’s not solid evidence that he actually committed the murder. His admission of burying the body doesn’t mean that he definitely killed her. IMO there’s mountains of reasonable doubt so far...

 

[Angleterre]

It’s puzzling isn’t it? I am surprised that unlawful burial / disposal wasn’t offered along with murder on the indictment, surely the prosecution have got him banged to rights on that offence, it’s what he’s admitting to all along!

Agreed...
But then again, a lot of this trial and the way in which it has been approached, is puzzling to me. I don’t say this to be critical of the Detectives who have put the case together but I am basing it on a hypothetical situation where it was my case . I have been the SIO of many cases at Crown Court and for any of you that aren’t sure what that means, it’s basically that I am the lead of the case and ultimately all decisions are taken and justified one way or another, by me ... The book stops at me and I have to take full responsibility for all the investigative work that has taken place within this murder enquiry and if it’s not an acceptable standard then it is I who will receive the admonishment from the judge . And hypothetically, had it of been my case, I would have approached it totally differently to what has been observed so far during this trial. That’s not to say that my way would be better or that the way it is being run is wrong, it’s just that I feel that if it were my case, I would have done many things differently. Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing but I can only go on my own gut feeling and my experience of being a detective and dealing with and heading up a team of detectives that deal with major and serious crime and know how the court process works and what traps to look for which may befall you

 

[MusicalMonkey]

12:26
No useful CCTV from Peel Park Avenue
The jury have been told that officers found three ‘potential sources’ of CCTV on Peel Park Avenue.

However defence barrister Mark Fenhalls QC said two cameras were not working on August 12 - the day Lindsay Birbeck disappeared - and the other was a motion camera which ‘sometimes worked for cars but not always’.

Det Sgt Dave Bowler agreed saying: “It picked up some vehicle movements but not all vehicle movements.”

Lindsay Birbeck murder trial at Preston Crown Court - updates

I think this highlights that if you are to have any CCTV security, that you have to make sure it's of 'good quality'.

And that if a system is Wifi connected that you take every measure to make sure you have an optimal signal, or even consider hard-wiring the cameras (and thus placing the 'wifi signal' much closer to your wifi signal hub).

 

[Angleterre]

I’m hoping the prosecution have more compelling evidence to show the jury. From what we’ve heard there’s not much definitively linking the accused. I know he has admitted to disposing of Lindsay’s body, but his defence is that someone else killed her. Aside from the question ‘why would you dispose of a body for someone you don’t even know or recognise?’
I’m beginning to think there’s not solid evidence that he actually committed the murder. His admission of burying the body doesn’t mean that he definitely killed her. IMO there’s mountains of reasonable doubt so far...

Yes agreed and let’s not forget that it is the role of the prosecution to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that RM killed LB . It matters not what defence he throws into the ring and how ridiculous it sounds, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution and not the defence. Presumed innocent until proven guilty and all that ...
The role of the defence is just that, to defend their client against any evidence put forth by the prosecution and to discredit it as much as they possibly can because the burden of proof does not lie with the defence...

 

[MusicalMonkey]

I’m confused, you walk up peel park avenue to access the coppice

Ummff!

* Goes to check map again.

Edit: Ah, yes i did mark this on a map I edited and posted here as one of the potential ways where Lindsay entered the Coppice.

 

[jamjim]

14:04
Jury asked to return at 2pm on Monday
The trial will not be sitting on Monday morning.

The jury have been asked to arrive at court and be ready to start at 2pm.

Lindsay Birbeck murder trial at Preston Crown Court - updates

 

[Angleterre]

I still think that his appropriate adult wasn’t so appropriate after all......

You may well be correct but if that were the case then why has this not been brought up before now. The appropriate adult starts at the very beginning and there has been months and months for the appropriateness of that particular adult to be investigated... so why now ? Hhmmmmmm