Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #4

[Roostercat]

Good point, I never thought about it like that, I was assuming it was the odd day(s) not years. Thinking back, it sounded like he was a current pupil to me.

It reads as though it was his current school, I assumed both teacher statements are from the same school, one teacher, one head teacher. I definitely think not mainstream school from the inference of the way he was taught and from this statement... many alternative provision schools and BESD schools do not have uniform, hence being identified by his clothes. With regards to his attendance, the head teacher state they had never had to make contact with his parents. Therefore I am also assuming that there were no issues with attendance, poor attendance would definitely warrant phone calls home. It is not unheard of for schools especially AP/SEN/BESD schools to literally drive to pupils homes to make sure they come into school. They are scrutinised so much on attendance data that they tend to go above and beyond to ensure children are in school.

'The teacher said he was informed by a colleague on WhatsApp of a police CCTV appeal
He told the jury that after viewing a clip of the footage online he was ‘99pc sure’ it was the defendant.
He said he could identify him by his clothes and the way he was walking'

 

[Spender]

So let’s briefly go to the land of make believe where our mystery man resides .....IF what RM is saying was true and mystery man was the murderer what in your opinion would be the motive i.e a contract killing, sexual attack , random spur of the moment or other ? Obviously this is a general sleuth question and is extremely unlikely but if RM is given the benefit of the doubt and the jury roll with that storyline??? JMO

 

[Emmalt]

So let’s briefly go to the land of make believe where our mystery man resides .....IF what RM is saying was true and mystery man was the murderer what in your opinion would be the motive i.e a contract killing, sexual attack , random spur of the moment or other ? Obviously this is a general sleuth question and is extremely unlikely but if RM is given the benefit of the doubt and the jury roll with that storyline??? JMO

Personal opinion... contract killing

 

[Thelastleg]

So let’s briefly go to the land of make believe where our mystery man resides .....IF what RM is saying was true and mystery man was the murderer what in your opinion would be the motive i.e a contract killing, sexual attack , random spur of the moment or other ? Obviously this is a general sleuth question and is extremely unlikely but if RM is given the benefit of the doubt and the jury roll with that storyline??? JMO

My thoughts. The mystery man is not a mystery but a person known to the defendant and the boy had been coerced into going along with the statement. Other people involved

 

[Alyce]

It reads as though it was his current school, I assumed both teacher statements are from the same school, one teacher, one head teacher. I definitely think not mainstream school from the inference of the way he was taught and from this statement... many alternative provision schools and BESD schools do not have uniform, hence being identified by his clothes. With regards to his attendance, the head teacher state they had never had to make contact with his parents. Therefore I am also assuming that there were no issues with attendance, poor attendance would definitely warrant phone calls home. It is not unheard of for schools especially AP/SEN/BESD schools to literally drive to pupils homes to make sure they come into school. They are scrutinised so much on attendance data that they tend to go above and beyond to ensure children are in school.

'The teacher said he was informed by a colleague on WhatsApp of a police CCTV appeal
He told the jury that after viewing a clip of the footage online he was ‘99pc sure’ it was the defendant.
He said he could identify him by his clothes and the way he was walking'

It is interesting that the head teacher said they had no need to ever contact his parents...but the other
( male ) teacher's evidence does mention his attendance record.


The teacher is describing how the defendant's attendance was 'not the best'



also this might indicate it was not a mainstream school ?


The teacher is saying he taught the defendant for around 18 months and taught other pupils with special educational needs, who were on a limited timetable



Lindsay Birbeck murder retrial - updates as case for prosecution draws to a close

 

[Emmalt]

My thoughts. The mystery man is not a mystery but a person known to the defendant and the boy had been coerced into going along with the statement. Other people involved

I agree

 

[Alyce]

10:43
Cross-examination
Under cross-examination from barrister Mark Fenhalls QC, Ms Henson said she didn’t know what weights the male was lifting.

Her evidence has now concluded and she has left the witness box


10:44
What's next
Prosecutor David McLachlan QC said they only have some more agreed facts to deal with and a ‘police officer to deal with some matters’.

Just bringing this back up.... I wonder why the police were not able to find anyone at the gym, manager, trainer, etc, who might have been able to advise re the type of weights that the defendant used during his sessions

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Just bringing this back up.... I wonder why the police were not able to find anyone at the gym, manager, trainer, etc, who might have been able to advise re the type of weights that the defendant used during his sessions

I feel the prosecution were a bit desperate for "witnesses" to bulk out their case...excuse the pun!

It is of primary importance that this witness identified the defendant from the CCTV stills released by the police.

She will have been asked what reason she had to remember the male pulling the bin on the CCTV. The reason was that she had previously seen the male at the gym, in an area reserved for free weights, an area in which those 'bulking up' frequent.

He looked out of place being in that section of the gym and he was wearing clothes that she did not consider were gym clothes.

This evidence wasn't reported well in the Court reports. I could not ascertain if he was just in the company of an older male or was also lifting free weights nor what was unusual about his 'gym' clothing.

The key is her identification and her reason for remembering....that he was a lad who lifted free weights in gym, the implication being that he is stronger than his build would suggest. This is most likely the prosecution's purpose for calling her.

The relevance may become clearer in the prosecution's summing up of the case.

 

[Skigh]

Just bringing this back up.... I wonder why the police were not able to find anyone at the gym, manager, trainer, etc, who might have been able to advise re the type of weights that the defendant used during his sessions

If quite a few travellers are members of the gym people might have been reluctant to come forward to give evidence against another member of the travelling community.

 

[Roostercat]

My thoughts. The mystery man is not a mystery but a person known to the defendant and the boy had been coerced into going along with the statement. Other people involved

If there was a mystery man, I would agree that the defendant would know him and is being used as the fall guy and or exploited. However I don't believe that is the case, think it was all him but do think that around his arrest that members of his family have done some cleaning up of evidence for him.

 

[Emmalt]

Just bringing this back up.... I wonder why the police were not able to find anyone at the gym, manager, trainer, etc, who might have been able to advise re the type of weights that the defendant used during his sessions

Yes that would have been helpful.. wonder if the defense use this to their benefit? You would think cctv footage would have viewed? I wonder if he was only observing or taking part in heavy weightlifting

 

[SpursGyal]

It is interesting that the head teacher said they had no need to ever contact his parents...but the other
( male ) teacher's evidence does mention his attendance record.


The teacher is describing how the defendant's attendance was 'not the best'



also this might indicate it was not a mainstream school ?


The teacher is saying he taught the defendant for around 18 months and taught other pupils with special educational needs, who were on a limited timetable



Lindsay Birbeck murder retrial - updates as case for prosecution draws to a close

It says that they didn’t need to contact his parents for behavioural issues. His attendance may have been another matter.

 

[PiggyStardust]

Everybody is spinning their wheels with the cctv/video evidence. I wouldn't recognise my own grandmother on quite a few whodunnit photos published in the local and national press. Some cameras adjust to low light making the timing of day hard to establish without a date stamp and some do indeed look through a glass darkly.

The DNA evidence is pretty incontroversible.Nobody is yet challenging that in court. Lets see what tomorrow brings.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Everybody is spinning their wheels with the cctv/video evidence. I wouldn't recognise my own grandmother on quite a few whodunnit photos published in the local and national press. Some cameras adjust to low light making the timing of day hard to establish without a date stamp and some do indeed look through a glass darkly.

The DNA evidence is pretty incontroversible.Nobody is yet challenging that in court. Lets see what tomorrow brings.

I suspect that the defence may bring in their own expert witnesses to challenge the quality of the DNA evidence recovered and any oversight in the evidential process that could have resulted in cross-contamination.

Some or all of the DNA evidence will likely be of poor quality due to the time delay and the environmental factors.

The DNA evidence makes the following assertions:

1. That LB came into contact with the inside of a wheelie bin found near to LB's body in the cemetery.

2. That the defendant wore gloves found in the cemetery and that they came into contact with LB.

3. That the trainers found in the skip removed from the cemetery were LB's and that they came into contact with the defendant.

As the boy has admitted transporting LB's body to the cemetery, this DNA evidence could be accounted for by the transportation and burying of LB in the cemetery and the disposal of her trainers there.

I am not aware of any other DNA evidence that has been produced.

I don't doubt he is solely responsible but I feel it is the circumstantial CCTV evidence of his coming and going at the relevant times and the witness testimony from Zoe Braithwaite, that may ultimately be the cause of his downfall.

 

[Roostercat]

Just bringing back up the forensic botanist estimate that the vegetation in the burial site was pulled 3-5 days before the 25th....
I get that the plastic could have preserved the vegetation but if the body was wrapped in plastic not longer after her death, i.e. 12th August his estimate wouldn't just be a couple of days out it would be over a week out and I don't believe an expert wouldn't take into account the plastic preserving the vegetation in his study and report. That said it doesn't seem to have been challenged by the defense so I am probably making more of this than necessary!

 

[Emmalt]

I suspect that the defence may bring in their own expert witnesses to challenge the quality of the DNA evidence recovered and any oversight in the evidential process that could have resulted in cross-contamination.

Some or all of the DNA evidence will likely be of poor quality due to the time delay and the environmental factors.

The DNA evidence makes the following assertions:

1. That LB came into contact with the inside of a wheelie bin found near to LB's body in the cemetery.

2. That the defendant wore gloves found in the cemetery and that they came into contact with LB.

3. That the trainers found in the skip removed from the cemetery were LB's and that they came into contact with the defendant.

As the boy has admitted transporting LB's body to the cemetery, this DNA evidence could be accounted for by the transportation and burying of LB in the cemetery and the disposal of her trainers there.

I am not aware of any other DNA evidence that has been produced.

I don't doubt he is solely responsible but I feel it is the circumstantial CCTV evidence of his coming and going at the relevant times and the witness testimony from Zoe Braithwaite, that may ultimately be the cause of his downfall.

what evidence was found on the saw..? Can you find anything? I don't recall anything in detail being mentioned. The way it was reported was worded a little difficult to make out if blood and/or DNA of either Lindsay or the defendant was present.

Also.. how long would someone still bleed for after death? If say cut the same hour of death or a few days later? Just curious

 

[SpursGyal]

what evidence was found on the saw..? Can you find anything? I don't recall anything in detail being mentioned. The way it was reported was worded a little difficult to make out if blood and/or DNA of either Lindsay or the defendant was present.

Also.. how long would someone still bleed for after death? If say cut the same hour of death or a few days later? Just curious

I believe it was stated blood on the saw, found near to the gloves with his DNA on.

 

[Emmalt]

I believe it was stated blood on the saw, found near to the gloves with his DNA on.

I am trying to find it in the reports

 

[Emmalt]

It just states that the saw was found.. I wonder if this was used to cut the trainers.. uppers from the soles. Also 1 shoe sole is missing.

 

[SpursGyal]

It just states that the saw was found.. I wonder if this was used to cut the trainers.. uppers from the soles. Also 1 shoe sole is missing.

I think we are again relying on snippets of court reporting for the saw.. this is what I can find, you could read from that that one or both items were forensically matched.

I read ‘a pair of trainers’

I believe the knife more likely on the trainers...