Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #4

[Emmalt]

I am not convinced his stranger story and him being offered a large sum of money is the truth but I actually believe the rest of his story. That he moved a body from an area off Burnley road. I believe he first hid her but was then 'told' to move her based on the known searches in the area at the time. I believe the stranger is someone known to him and that person was/is going to be paid a large sum of money to kill Lindsay and then had the boy move her so they aren't linked to the crime. I think as his teachers have said he did, he followed direction and didn't question it. I really don't think he understands the severity of what he has done.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Given the prosecution witness statements from his teacher/head teacher I was really expecting them to show him in a negative way, I thought he may have behaviour problems, anger issues, previous troubles at school, fighting etc... had that been the case I may have been convinced he did commit the murder and acted alone. The head teacher taught him for 3.5 years and the teacher over an 18 month period.. you would think there would be a single incident which showed him being capable of such violence but there is nothing. He was quiet, never in any trouble, never had to ring home regarding his behaviour. Ok so he is strong for his size etc.. but that's quite common given the community he is from.

How we view the evidence from.tue teacher and head teacher is quite subjective.

I took their evidence, that he was not disruptive or aggressive and would sit quietly if he didn't wish to participate as a very good indicator that he had good self-control and awareness of what was acceptable behaviour in a social setting. He had conscious awareness of right and wrong. This is good evidence when demonstrating conscious thought and the ability to form guilty intent or 'mens rea'

He was shown to have interest in walking, the outdoors, gardening and was strong for his age.

If there had been evidence of hurting children and animals then this could be an indicator of personality disorder in a juvenile, such as conduct disorder. If diagnosed this may have resulted in a defence to the murder charge of diminished responsibility. That is not the case here.

I really don't think you can deny the relevance of what we do know about this defendant behaviour and actions during the period in question. They all point to an individual who can operate independently and without compassion or empathy for his victim.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Given the prosecution witness statements from his teacher/head teacher I was really expecting them to show him in a negative way, I thought he may have behaviour problems, anger issues, previous troubles at school, fighting etc... had that been the case I may have been convinced he did commit the murder and acted alone. The head teacher taught him for 3.5 years and the teacher over an 18 month period.. you would think there would be a single incident which showed him being capable of such violence but there is nothing. He was quiet, never in any trouble, never had to ring home regarding his behaviour. Ok so he is strong for his size etc.. but that's quite common given the community he is from.

How we view the evidence from the teacher and head teacher is quite subjective.

What I took from their evidence, was that he was not disruptive or aggressive and would sit quietly if he didn't wish to participate. This demonstrates to me that he has good self-control and awareness of what is acceptable behaviour in a social setting.

He had conscious awareness of right and wrong. This is good evidence when demonstrating the ability to have conscious thought and also guilty intent or 'mens rea'

He was shown to have interest in walking, the outdoors, gardening and was strong for his age.

If there had been evidence of being spiteful or hurting children and animals then this could be an indicator of personality disorder in a juvenile, such as conduct disorder. If diagnosed this may have resulted in a defence to the murder charge of diminished responsibility. That is not the case here.

I really don't think you can deny the relevance of what we do know about this defendants behaviour and actions during the period in question.

They all point to an individual who can operate independently and without compassion or empathy for his victim.

 

[Emmalt]

I am not convinced his stranger story and him being offered a large sum of money is the truth but I actually believe the rest of his story. That he moved a body from an area off Burnley road. I believe he first hid her but was then 'told' to move her based on the known searches in the area at the time. I believe the stranger is someone known to him and that person was/is going to be paid a large sum of money to kill Lindsay and then had the boy move her so they aren't linked to the crime. I think as his teachers have said he did, he followed direction and didn't question it. I really don't think he understands the severity of what he has done.

How we view the evidence from the teacher and head teacher is quite subjective.

What I took from their evidence, was that he was not disruptive or aggressive and would sit quietly if he didn't wish to participate. This demonstrates to me that he has good self-control and awareness of what is acceptable behaviour in a social setting.

He had conscious awareness of right and wrong. This is good evidence when demonstrating the ability to have conscious thought and also guilty intent or 'mens rea'

He was shown to have interest in walking, the outdoors, gardening and was strong for his age.

If there had been evidence of being spiteful or hurting children and animals then this could be an indicator of personality disorder in a juvenile, such as conduct disorder. If diagnosed this may have resulted in a defence to the murder charge of diminished responsibility. That is not the case here.

I really don't think you can deny the relevance of what we do know about this defendants behaviour and actions during the period in question.

They all point to an individual who can operate independently and without compassion or empathy for his victim.

You make a good point with the diminished resposibity charge if he had prior with regards to hurting animals/children etc... didn't think along these lines... but I would think that a person of this nature would actually be the opposite, aggressive, violent, not care how he acted in public etc. Or i would think maybe he was bullied at school and trying to show how big and strong he is now and possibly be threatening towards people... who is to say what a stereotypical murderer should be like. There does seem to be a pattern though, alot of them are outcasts, quiet and shy and people wouldn't expect that type of person to be a killer/serial killer. Suppose you just never know what is going on in anyone's head at any given time.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I am not convinced his stranger story and him being offered a large sum of money is the truth but I actually believe the rest of his story. That he moved a body from an area off Burnley road. I believe he first hid her but was then 'told' to move her based on the known searches in the area at the time. I believe the stranger is someone known to him and that person was/is going to be paid a large sum of money to kill Lindsay and then had the boy move her so they aren't linked to the crime. I think as his teachers have said he did, he followed direction and didn't question it. I really don't think he understands the severity of what he has done.

I am going to be really blunt:

There is no evidence for many of your assertions and beliefs.

Criminal cases are only built on evidence, never on beliefs.

That you choose to dismiss the evidence that has been presented in Court in favour of your own narrative is a mindset that you will need to change if you want to objectively challenge the evidence presented.

Years ago the police sometimes used to get their suspect and make the evidence fit, ignoring the evidence that would undermine their case.

Now the police follow the evidential trail to find their offender also making sure that they find any evidence that undermines their case or supports the suspects innocence along the way.

Think like a modern investigator, find counter evidence, gaps, omissions or inconsistencies in the evidence being put forward to rebuff it rather than saying "I think this happened" but not being able to support it with fact.

 

[Kikicatfood]

I am going to be really blunt:

There is no evidence for many of your assertions and beliefs.

Criminal cases are only built on evidence, never on beliefs.

That you choose to dismiss the evidence that has been presented in Court in favour of your own narrative is a mindset that you will need to change if you want to objectively challenge the evidence presented.

Years ago the police sometimes used to get their suspect and make the evidence fit, ignoring the evidence that would undermine their case.

Now the police follow the evidential trail to find their offender also making sure that they find any evidence that undermines their case or supports the suspects innocence along the way.

Think like a modern investigator, find counter evidence, gaps, omissions or inconsistencies in the evidence being put forward to rebuff it rather than saying "I think this happened" but not being able to support it with fact.

In my opinion there is also no evidence for the prosecutions case to say that he killed her. Yes he disposed of her body, but I would not convict someone of murder on this evidence, it doesn’t go beyond reasonable doubt for me. Surely the prosecution case is built on ‘assertions and beliefs’ without solid evidence of murder.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

In my opinion there is also no evidence for the prosecutions case to say that he killed her. Yes he disposed of her body, but I would not convict someone of murder on this evidence, it doesn’t go beyond reasonable doubt for me. Surely the prosecution case is built on ‘assertions and beliefs’ without solid evidence of murder.

I agree that the evidence for the defendant killing LB is purely circumstantial.

The injury that killed LB required sufficient force to assert that the killer intended serious harm if not to kill.

I assert that the CCTV of the defendants movements clearly demonstrates autonomy by the defendant in and around the specific areas of interest at the material times. There is no evidence that he is being coached or led in any way.

ZB's eye witness testimony, whilst having inconsistencies and no independent corroboration may have a significant impact on the jury.

The Judges instructions to the jury after the summing up will give us clearer indication as to the likely outcome.

It is a difficult one to call as the burden of proof is beyond ALL reasonable doubt. It will all depend on the weight the jury place on the circumstantial evidence, ZB's testimony, LB's cause of death and the absence of any evidence of third party involvement.

I believe the evidence will be compelling enough for a murder conviction.

 

[Emmalt]

I am going to be really blunt:

There is no evidence for many of your assertions and beliefs.

Criminal cases are only built on evidence, never on beliefs.

That you choose to dismiss the evidence that has been presented in Court in favour of your own narrative is a mindset that you will need to change if you want to objectively challenge the evidence presented.

Years ago the police sometimes used to get their suspect and make the evidence fit, ignoring the evidence that would undermine their case.

Now the police follow the evidential trail to find their offender also making sure that they find any evidence that undermines their case or supports the suspects innocence along the way.

Think like a modern investigator, find counter evidence, gaps, omissions or inconsistencies in the evidence being put forward to rebuff it rather than saying "I think this happened" but not being able to support it with fact.

There is 'zero' evidence he laid one finger on her... that is a FACT! There is nothing that had been presented in the trial to suggest 100% this boy murdered this woman in cold blood.. they dont even have a motive. I dont believe the evidence they have is sufficient for him to be charged with murder.

You really do seem offended by each of my comments on the thread. I'm not going to continue this with you so I will leave you to comment to everyone else and will read your comments as you are knowledgable but i will ask you kindly... please do not respond to me because you disagree with me.. I find your comments rude and offensive to say the least

 

[PiggyStardust]

People have lost their lives because of a phone robbery gone wrong. Am I stereotyping this fellow? vis: a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person.
LB's phone is missing. This young fellow had a phone surely? Me stereotyping again, eh? That too is missing although he had an empty iPhone box at his home.

 

[Emmalt]

People have lost their lives because of a phone robbery gone wrong. Am I stereotyping this fellow? vis: a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person.
LB's phone is missing. This young fellow had a phone surely? Me stereotyping again, eh? That too is missing although he had an empty iPhone box at his home.

I am confused as to what your comment is relating to.. maybe I have read it wrong

 

[Whitehall 1212]

People have lost their lives because of a phone robbery gone wrong. Am I stereotyping this fellow? vis: a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person.
LB's phone is missing. This young fellow had a phone surely? Me stereotyping again, eh? That too is missing although he had an empty iPhone box at his home.

A possible motive, yes. But there is no clear motive, although definitely opportunity and physically the means.

LB's phone was a Huawei, incidentally.

 

[Thelastleg]

We have not been told when the teachers last had weekly contact with the defendant. This is relevant when considering how their assessment reflects his presentation from 12 August 2019 onwards.

Their assessment is in one setting only and therefore is not a holistic view.

The defendant may have had a sexual motive, I fear we will never know. This resulted in him killing LB, either with or without intent.

The gravity of the injury that caused death indicates intent to cause serious harm at the very least.

His activity observed on CCTV indicates an individual who was acting in a disctinctly unilateral way.

Totally agree with everything you say. However, no reports of inappropriate behaviour in the past. He was at school at the age of puberty. Nothing untoward reported. Pretty sure if there was the prosecution would have used that to sway the jury that he had been leading up to a serious sexual assault. I'm sure you are familiar with Bad Character Reference. If I were on the jury I would expect more evidence than placing lindsay's body in the bin and hiding it. I'd want to know exactly where the crime scene was and can they prove beyond any doubt that the boy was there at the time. You say that he killed lindsay and he very well may have done. We still have to hear the defence, but I hope the jury keep an open mind as so far he had only admitted disposing of the body. It's not like there has never been a miscarriage of justice.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

There is 'zero' evidence he laid one finger on her... that is a FACT! There is nothing that had been presented in the trial to suggest 100% this boy murdered this woman in cold blood.. they dont even have a motive. I dont believe the evidence they have is sufficient for him to be charged with murder.

You really do seem offended by each of my comments on the thread. I'm not going to continue this with you so I will leave you to comment to everyone else and will read your comments as you are knowledgable but i will ask you kindly... please do not respond to me because you disagree with me.. I find your comments rude and offensive to say the least

I do not wish to offend. I made my point strongly, I agree.

My reason was that narratives, which are not based on any evidence are put forward, often dismissing the evidence we do have out of hand.

By all means challenge the veracity of the evidence that has been put forward and the gaps in it that mean it may not reach the required standard for conviction.

I'm sure tomorrow through to Friday we will be discussing the case for the defence and it's impact on the prosecution's evidence. That should prompt some very thought provoking discussion.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Totally agree with everything you say. However, no reports of inappropriate behaviour in the past. He was at school at the age of puberty. Nothing untoward reported. Pretty sure if there was the prosecution would have used that to sway the jury that he had been leading up to a serious sexual assault. I'm sure you are familiar with Bad Character Reference. If I were on the jury I would expect more evidence than placing lindsay's body in the bin and hiding it. I'd want to know exactly where the crime scene was and can they prove beyond any doubt that the boy was there at the time. You say that he killed lindsay and he very well may have done. We still have to hear the defence, but I hope the jury keep an open mind as so far he had only admitted disposing of the body. It's not like there has never been a miscarriage of justice.

It's a difficult one as there have been murder convictions without bodies, cause of death or crime scenes but other factors have resulted in a murder convictions, albeit different circumstances to this, e.g. the murder of Danielle Jones in 2001.

I think we would agree that this is a tragic yet fascinating case.

 

[ChloLo]

I think it’s important to remember we aren’t seeing or hearing everything the jury are.

 

[Thelastleg]

It's a difficult one as there have been murder convictions without bodies, cause of death or crime scenes but other factors have resulted in a murder convictions, albeit different circumstances to this, e.g. the murder of Danielle Jones in 2001.

I think we would agree that this is a tragic yet fascinating case.

Absolutely. I'll await the defence evidence and Counsels' summing up before forming an opinion.

 

[Niner]

Monday, August 10th:
*Re-Trial Continues (Day 6) (@ 10:30am UK) – UK – Lindsay Birbeck (47) (from Huncoat; last seen ~ 2:30pm on Aug. 12, 2019 & walking towards Accrington on Burnley Road @ 4:06pm on CCTV; found Aug. 24, 2019 in the area of Accrington Cemetery on Burnley Road) - *16/now 17 year old arrested (8/27/19) on suspicion of murder & charged (8/31/19) & arraigned (8/3/20) with murder & (added on 8/3/20) with manslaughter. Plead not guilty. Remanded to custody.
Re-Trial began on 8/3/20 (should last 2 weeks). Jurors: 9 women & 3 men.
Previous trial info & other court info from 6/1/20 thru 7/21/20 & retrial from 8/3/20 (Day 1) thru 8/6/20 (Day 4) reference post #338 here:
Found Deceased - UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #4
8/7/20 Day 5: The defendant is attending court today & will be in the dock. He has appeared via video link for the past three days. Lauren Henson gave evidence from the witness box. She had a membership at a gym in Accrington last year. Was questioned by Prosecutor David McLachlan QC. Ms. Henson said she became aware of a police CCTV appeal & recognize the male in the footage as the same person at the gym. Under cross-examination from barrister Mark Fenhalls QC, Ms. Henson said she didn’t know what weights the male was lifting. Her evidence was concluded & she left the witness box. Prosecutor David McLachlan QC said they only have some more agreed facts to deal with & a ‘police officer to deal with some matters’. The Judge told the jury that they have now heard ‘most of the evidence in the case’. They were sent away until Monday, 8/10. Defense barrister Mark Fenhalls QC said he needed time today to speak to the defendant before the defense case resumes.

 

[PiggyStardust]

It's a difficult one as there have been murder convictions without bodies, cause of death or crime scenes but other factors have resulted in a murder convictions, albeit different circumstances to this, e.g. the murder of Danielle Jones in 2001.

2005 and not too far away from the Coppice we had the David Guilfoyle murder, missing body, plastic sheeting and a shallow grave.

David Guilfoyle was killed with a pick axe by ‘love rival’, inquest told

 

[LucyRocket]

Why would he not get life imprisonment for assisting an offender? He has physically been able to deal with a rotting corpse.. he deserves life imprisonment for that alone.. is it Because of his age/disability? Or both? Minus time served?

Life imprisonment isn't how it should be anyway.. apart from sickness and ill health who doesnt live to 20/25? I don't understand using the term 'life' if the perps aren't locked up for the whole of their lives.. it's so wrong

Well, it is, but. A life sentence is a whole life sentence, but usually with a minimum term imposed. So you CAN be detained for the remainder of your life, but you can be released at any time following your minimum term being served, as long as the parole panel feel that is appropriate. If you show no sign of reform, re-offend while you are serving your minimum term, or are considered to still pose a risk to the public, you will not be released.

 

[SpursGyal]

10:23KEY EVENT
Day 6
Good morning everyone and welcome back to Preston Crown Court.

We will shortly be resuming our live coverage of the retrial.

The case is expected to start around 10.30am.


10:23
What will happen today
Prosecutor David McLachlan QC will conclude the Crown’s case to the jury this morning before the defence starts their case.


10:30
Defendant at court
The defendant has attended Preston Crown Court today and will appear in the dock.


Lindsay Birbeck murder retrial at Preston Crown Court - updates