Deceased/Not Found UK - Margaret Fleming, 19, Inverclyde, Scotland, 17 Dec 1999 *Guilty*

[Taskforce88]

Doctors not going out on home visits is not uncommon unless you live in a remote area.

How many times in total did Margaret miss a benefits meeting? And did they only start requests with the change in the benefits system in 2012?

 

[Legally Bland]

At the High Court in Glasgow today, PC Gilmour said they were asked to investigate on October 28, 2016, after a social worker had been unable to contact Ms Fleming and had raised concerns.

The police officer told the jury the door was answered by Jones who claimed Ms Fleming and Cairney were out.

When eventually joined by Cairney, the suspect stated Ms Fleming had been scared by the police presence and run off.

During questioning, Cairney allegedly became irate and stated: "You know where this is going don't you, Avril. This is going to end up in a murder charge."

Defence QC Thomas Ross argued Cairney never said that.

The jury heard items allegedly belonging to Ms Fleming were recovered; however there was no toothbrush, hairbrush or underwear.

There were also no photographs of Ms Fleming in the house.

PC Gilmour stated in the early stages of a missing person investigation it is normal to ask for personal effects in order to obtain a DNA profile from them.

Margaret Fleming carer 'predicted murder charge'

 

[jessie]

the suspect stated Ms Fleming had been scared by the police presence and run off.

During questioning, Cairney allegedly became irate and stated: "You know where this is going don't you, Avril. This is going to end up in a murder charge."

Margaret Fleming carer 'predicted murder charge'

Blimey That's a bit precipitate isn't it ?? Weird. ?!!

 

[Legally Bland]

A tiny bit more from yesterday.
_____________

The jury heard that items allegedly belonging to Margaret were found in Seacroft.

These were a tartan jumper found in a cupboard in the hall, a blue t-shirt found in a room upstairs which was filled with clutter, some socks and a toy penguin, which Jones said was Margaret's favourite toy.

Mr McSporran asked the police officer: "What did Avril Jones say when you took the socks away?" and he replied: "She said: 'No, I don't have any socks."

The prosecutor asked: "Did you challenge her about this?" and he replied: "She said that they shared pairs of socks."

Police officer recounts missing woman probe

 

[Legally Bland]

Another bit from yesterday.
_______________

Another police officer then gave evidence that Jones admitted Ms Fleming's benefits money was paid into her bank account.

Constable Stuart Rintoul claimed Jones said she received between £500 and £1000 a month.

He added: "Avril said it went into her bank account as Margaret didn't have one. She said she gave Edward his bit and Margaret her bit."

The officer was then asked what Jones told him about Margaret, and said: "She said she ate out of a dog bowl."

The court was told when the police visited the property it was just days before Ms Fleming's birthday, yet there was no sign of birthday cards or presents in the house.

Prosecutor Iain McSporran QC asked: "Did you ask what were her habits and where she would visit?"

Rintoul replied: "They said nothing and nowhere and said she didn't leave the house, didn't do anything."

Margaret Fleming carer 'predicted murder charge'

 

[Legally Bland]

From today, the differences are really showing between what EC and AJ told the police and what they told friends, neighbours and the BBC:
_______________

Mr Campbell was one of a number of police officers who went to Seacroft after social worker Veronica Bennett raised concerns about Margaret's welfare.

He told prosecutor Iain McSporran QC that he searched the shore area at the back of the house by torchlight and found no sign of Margaret.

The High Court in Glasgow has heard the accused claim that Margaret and Mr Cairney had been out for a walk to Wemyss Bay where she bought a Mars bar in a newsagents.

[...]

Sgt Christopher McKay was asked by Mr McSporran if Ms Jones had said anything to him about a social worker.

The witness replied: "She said the social worker had ruined her life."

Asked who Ms Jones was talking about Mr McKay said: "I believe it to be Miss Bennett."

Sgt McKay told the court that he believed that Margaret had not been at the house that night.

[...]

Another police officer Sgt Richard Moffat, who also spoke to the accused, was asked if they appeared concerned about Margaret and replied: "No, not at all."

He added: "Mr Cairney said she had previously been missing one time. He said he went to London to look for her and found her in a hotel in the Lake District."

The police officer told the jury that Cairney gave no indication of when this happened.

Missing woman described as 'backwards'

 

[jessie]

Thanks for these updates and snippets LB. This story just gets stranger and stranger the more is reported.

"Cairney went to London to look for her and found her in a hotel in the Lake District" ?? How did he do that I wonder, not exactly near each other London/Lake District. So did Margaret conveniently leave a forwarding address

The vid you posted was very interesting though such poor sound for me. Anyway, I was struck by what an uncomfortable presence both Cairney & Jones gave out. Cairney is much larger/stronger looking than I imagined and Jones.... well what a mask her face is. I would so love to know how they are both coming across to the jury.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

It's so obvious, isn't it? They abused and neglected her, probably made her eat out of a dog bowl, probably took all her belongings, definitely spent her money. God knows whether she died "naturally' (ie of malnutrition/illness) or was murdered. Either or, I hope the jury see through it all but unless they have some more definite evidence I don't know how a murder charge will stick.

Thanks again for keeping us up to date.

 

[bluebird69]

Good job I wasn't on this jury. I watched the interview on local TV at the time and it screamed guilty to me. This is a joke going to London and finding Margaret in the Lake District. Are they trying to act as if they are just two confused middle aged people?

Eta thanks from me too for all the updates LB. After a day at work it is much appreciated

 

[Ironside]

I can't believe Avril described Margaret as backwards and doolally. That is not the way an actual carer would ever speak about the person they're looking after!

Is doolally a Scottish phrase or have others heard it before? It means silly/away with the fairies. If someone calls you doolally it's certainly not the worst insult in the world but in this context it's rather disgusting.

 

[jessie]

I can't believe Avril described Margaret as backwards and doolally. That is not the way an actual carer would ever speak about the person they're looking after!

Is doolally a Scottish phrase or have others heard it before? It means silly/away with the fairies. If someone calls you doolally it's certainly not the worst insult in the world but in this context it's rather disgusting.

I am in the west country (UK of course) and yes have heard that very insulting phrase doolally. I could (never have) use it to describe myself and my occasional confusion in a lighthearted way to friends I suppose.
Nevertheless I always. always, say to those using it how utterly insulting it is used in the context of a third person with even slight cognitive impairment. From a supposed carer it is totally unacceptable.
This pair are the lowest of the low imo. Make me so angry.

 

[Legally Bland]

Today's BBC article has been updated.
________________

Ms Harrison, 54, from Irvine, said she met Margaret four times between 1997 and 1999.

And she told prosecutor Iain McSporran QC that on two of these occasions the teenager had duct tape on her.

'Skin going blue'
The second occasion was a dinner when she was seated beside Margaret.

Mrs Harrison told the High Court in Glasgow: "Her hand was going blue. I said 'What's wrong with her?'.

"Eddie Cairney pulled her sleeve back and there was like duct tape on her wrist. It was her skin going blue. The tape was right round her wrist.

"Eddie said to Avril 'Get that off her' in a really stern voice and Avril pulled the tape off."

The witness was asked how Margaret was.

Ms Harrison replied: "She looked quite frightened and she was shaking."

She told the jury on a later visit to the house she saw Margaret with duct tape on her face.

When Ms Harrison asked about this she was told it was to stop the teenager scratching herself and that it was none of her business.

Missing woman had 'tape wrapped tight around her wrist'

 

[Ironside]

Jeezo. One phone call about the duct tape could have saved Margaret.

 

[Satchie]

Jeezo. One phone call about the duct tape could have saved Margaret.

I agree, this person witnessed abuse, and then Margaret simply disappeared, but she showed no concern. I guess she was dazzled by this charming couple and their delightful hospitality, and didn't want to put in jeopardy the precious bond they had formed over collecting used bricks from the dump!

 

[Ironside]

I agree, this person witnessed abuse, and then Margaret simply disappeared, but she showed no concern. I guess she was dazzled by this charming couple and their delightful hospitality, and didn't want to put in jeopardy the precious bond they had formed over collecting used bricks from the dump!

We don't know the exact circumstances, perhaps this lady was a bit scared of EC? He sounds like a horrible intimidating man. Her evidence is pretty damning so I'm grateful for that. If I was the defence I'd probably do a lot of cross examining with this witness.

The dump bond -. ehat a strange way to make friends. Maybe that's where Avril got her hoard from?

I know the Twits have been mentioned in relation to the defendants but I'm now thinking of Stig of the Dump as well.

 

[Legally Bland]

Bit more from Mrs Harrison (witness who saw the duct tape).
_______________

Defence QC Thomas Ross, representing Cairney, said: “You never contacted the police about Margaret Fleming,” and she replied: “No, they came to me.”

The QC added: “It was 18 years before you mentioned this, you didn’t report it at the time,” and Mrs Harrison said: “No, I thought social services were dealing with it.”

Defence QC Iain Duguid, representing Jones, asked her if she remembered a young friend of hers – David Wilson – asking if she thought he should ask Margaret out.

She replied: “Yes, my husband John and I gave him advice not to as we thought she was underage. I thought she was about 15.”

Missing Margaret Fleming had 'duct tape on her arms at dinner table'

 

[Legally Bland]

Today:
_____________

PC Kimberley Hill, a dog handler, was giving evidence at the trial of Mr Cairney, 77, and Avril Jones, 58.

[...]

The witness told the High Court in Glasgow she spoke to Mr Cairney and Ms Jones to try to get information about Margaret.

PC Hill added: "We had a vulnerable person with learning difficulties and we were concerned for her."

The officer had been informed Margaret made off through the back of the house before she briefed Mr Cairney and Ms Jones how a dog search works.

PC Hill said: "Mr Cairney said the dog won't find any scent. He said she might have gone round the back and swung out onto the main road."

Mr McSporran said: "His first instinct was to say the dog wouldn't find any scent?"

The witness replied: "Yes."

PC Hill said that she was told Margaret had been wearing a tartan fleece, jeans and builders' boots that night.

She told the court Mr Cairney described Margaret as around 5ft 4in, of heavy build with dark shoulder length hair.

Asked if the accused said where she might have gone, the witness replied: "Mr Cairney said Wemyss Bay. I asked if she would have gone on foot. He thought about it and said: 'No, she sometimes gets picked up by travellers.'

Dog 'would not detect' missing woman


“Miss Jones said it had been drummed into Margaret by her grandmother from a young age if the police got her they would take her away. There was a comment that if I found her she might be violent because I am a uniformed officer.”

The court heard that Constable Hill asked if Margaret had a mobile phone and was told she did, but neither Cairney nor Jones knew the number,

Under cross examination by defence QC Thomas Ross, representing Cairney, Constable Hill admitted that there was only a limited time period for dogs to pick up scent.

Mr Ross said: “If Margaret had walked along a hard surface the scent would be gone by the time you got there,” and Constable Hill replied: “Yes.”

The court was told that the maximum time for scent to linger on grassy areas was about two hours.

The defence QC said: “There are some indications this happened at 5.40pm and you did not get there until 8.30pm, so Mr Cairney might have been correct when he said the dogs' chances of getting her was low,” and the police officer replied: “That's correct.”

Margaret Fleming murder accused 'told cops police dog wouldn't find her scent'


BBM. They didn't know Margaret's mobile number? SMH.

 

[Satchie]

BBM. They didn't know Margaret's mobile number? SMH.

When I read this testimony, I imagine the scene as Cairney and Jones trying hard to keep their stories straight and remember what lies they've told other people, and what lies will seem most plausible to the police and make them go away. It's very challenging to think through the consequences of all your lies. IMO Cairney thought , "I'd better to say yes to the mobile, so that it'll seem like she could phone her travelling friends", but he didn't anticipate being asked the phone number.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Where they really messed up was saying that Margaret had just run off when the police called round. If it were me (and I promised I don't speak from experience!) and I'd disposed of a body years ago, I'd make sure that I and my partner in crime had our story straight. If they'd said "oh she upped and left ages ago and we've not heard from her" they'd have had so much more of their story covered.

 

[Ironside]

Where they really messed up was saying that Margaret had just run off when the police called round. If it were me (and I promised I don't speak from experience!) and I'd disposed of a body years ago, I'd make sure that I and my partner in crime had our story straight. If they'd said "oh she upped and left ages ago and we've not heard from her" they'd have had so much more of their story covered.

They couldn't say she ran off years ago though because that would be admitting to benefit fraud.

I don't think they were very prepared for the police visit, you'd think they'd have at least set up a pile of clothes and personal items to pretend were Margaret's. They really should have known due to the social workers recent questions. I think all the evidence shows that these two are complete and utter idiots.