UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #12

[scottishgal]

I agree. I cannot understand why you would not record this. Also, if you do suspect incompetence, or worse, you have a moral duty to report it or effectively deal with it in some respect.

very very plain speak here - and mods pls delete if its not right - but as a British person of Indian /Asian origin myself - scary and difficult to speak out and accuse for anyone in this situation, but esp so as a non white person. I know that does not excuse a delay. and we still dont even know if LL is innocent or guilty anyway but just talking to possibly why he hesitated and made sure before speaking out . I might not be right at all.

 

[Supernovae]

how is dr J still going to be able to work there now, after whistleblowing that senior management fobbed off initial concerns

or is even a doctor's career small collateral compared to 17 babies harmed , very very difficult and traumatic case to follow

As I recall the Chief Exectutive got out of dodge fairly quickly around the time of the first arrest:

Chester hospital boss Tony Chambers resigns

New medical director and deputy chief executive Dr Susan Gilby has taken the helm

www.cheshire-live.co.uk

 

[Supernovae]

As I recall the Chief Exectutive got out of dodge fairly quickly around the time of the first arrest:

Chester hospital boss Tony Chambers resigns

New medical director and deputy chief executive Dr Susan Gilby has taken the helm

www.cheshire-live.co.uk

Reading through that article his deputy and medical director as well:

"I have therefore asked Susan Gilby, medical director and deputy chief executive officer to be the acting chief executive officer."


Dr Gilby only recently took over from outgoing medical director and deputy chief executive Ian Harvey who retired at the end of July.

Talking about Mr Harvey's replacement, Mr Chambers said at the time: “As one chapter closes another one opens, and we are all excited to see what Dr Susan Gilby will bring to the Countess as our new medical director."

 

[Becky53]

He said in his evidence, though, that if it had become dislodged due to handling the baby it would be evident that it had to the nurse doing the handling. I take from that that pretty much any dislocating of the tube is going to be noticed.

This baby was sedated, according to his evidence, which to me essentially makes it highly unlikely it would be moving around enough to dislodge it.

The issue I'm getting at there is that if the allegation is that LL did indeed dislodge the tube (which appears to be what they're getting at or why silence the alarm) then that is clearly an extremely serious allegation or, at the very least, a serious competency problem. Why, in that case, was the matter not taken further by him?

Seems baby K wasn’t sedated at the time


Dr Jayaram is asked about the morphine infusion recorded, which appears on the notes above a note added, timed at 3.50am.
Dr Jayaram says, having seen the prescription chart, the morphine infusion would not have happened before the desaturation.
Mr Myers said Dr Jayaram had told police Child K had been sedated with morphine. Dr Jayaram said that was what he had believed at the time.
Dr Jayaram says Child K was not on a morphine infusion prior to the desaturation. "However", she was not a vigorous baby.
He says, in retrospect, he will accept the morphine was not running prior to the desaturation.
He says he is "surprised" it was not running sooner.
He says he believed, "in good faith", the morphine was running at the time.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Baby K’s case is the one I’d been waiting for. A sedated baby whereby LL was allegedly caught in the act having dislodged the breathing tube with the child being close to death.

Having read the evidence it feels all a bit underwhelming, and could very much be a case of Dr J went in there expecting to see a crime being committed, and so that’s what he saw.

It sounds like the baby wasn’t sedated, on the contrary was “active” and had a breathing tube that was too small to the extent that 94% of the air leaked around it. The saturations were “in the 80s”, which would seem to be a situation where a nurse would stop and observe and then raise the alarm if needed.

Also, not a behavioural expert by any stretch, but LL’s lack of reaction when Dr J walked in feels important. If someone was in the process of killing a baby and was then unexpectedly caught in the act, I think I’d expect them to overcompensate, “Dr J, come quick, something is wrong”, not just nonchalantly remark that the baby seems to have just started deteriorating.

I think this entire trial will hinge on the insulin cases.

JMO.

I think we were all expecting there to be a big dramatic piece of information in Dr. J’s testimony , or a Perry Mason moment from Mr Myers, or just a general verbal punch-up between the two. It’s all been very underwhelming.

 

[notsure]

very very plain speak here - and mods pls delete if its not right - but as a British person of Indian /Asian origin myself - scary and difficult to speak out and accuse for anyone in this situation, but esp so as a non white person. I know that does not excuse a delay. and we still dont even know if LL is innocent or guilty anyway but just talking to possibly why he hesitated and made sure before speaking out . I might not be right at all.

I don't think Dr Jayaram would be lacking in confidence in that respect. He's quite outspoken on various tv shows, apparently Dr Ravi Jayaram - Knight Ayton

 

[scottishgal]

I don't think Dr Jayaram would be lacking in confidence in that respect. He's quite outspoken on various tv shows, apparently Dr Ravi Jayaram - Knight Ayton

Yes good point , agree there

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

very very plain speak here - and mods pls delete if its not right - but as a British person of Indian /Asian origin myself - scary and difficult to speak out and accuse for anyone in this situation, but esp so as a non white person. I know that does not excuse a delay. and we still dont even know if LL is innocent or guilty anyway but just talking to possibly why he hesitated and made sure before speaking out . I might not be right at all.

Perhaps there was also (unintentional?) gaslighting of Dr J by the managers. He’s apparently raised concerns before now and they brushed them off. So in his mind, he might already be thinking that he is a bit crazy with his suspicions because he has essentially been told as much when he was dismissed by senior management.

I suppose it depends on how senior management was generally. If senior management had always in Dr Jays experience acted reasonably, then it makes sense that he would follow their advice when they told him to drop it, because he has no reason to distrust them. But if senior management has generally been pretty poor, there is more of an argument that he should have pressed ahead with his concerns even when they were telling him to stop.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Perhaps it is cynical of me, but I don't have trouble believing management fobbed anyone off.

And perhaps there were really subtle signs in the incubator which Dr. J isn't able to articulate well (exact position of tube in baby's mouth, condition of fixation equipment, etc), but the news that the baby was active and not sedated definitely makes accidental dislodgement more plausible. I don't know if this testimony has helped the prosecution's case, so far but that is JMO.

 

[scottishgal]

not an intelligent or useful comment from me, but I really really really keep wondering did she do it. and I have no idea. May truth and justice prevail.

Its just really hard to believe anyone would deliberately do all this honestly, esp one young and w/a bright future ahead.

 

[JosieJo]

Baby K’s case is the one I’d been waiting for. A sedated baby whereby LL was allegedly caught in the act having dislodged the breathing tube with the child being close to death.

Having read the evidence it feels all a bit underwhelming, and could very much be a case of Dr J went in there expecting to see a crime being committed, and so that’s what he saw.

It sounds like the baby wasn’t sedated, on the contrary was “active” and had a breathing tube that was too small to the extent that 94% of the air leaked around it. The saturations were “in the 80s”, which would seem to be a situation where a nurse would stop and observe and then raise the alarm if needed.

Also, not a behavioural expert by any stretch, but LL’s lack of reaction when Dr J walked in feels important. If someone was in the process of killing a baby and was then unexpectedly caught in the act, I think I’d expect them to overcompensate, “Dr J, come quick, something is wrong”, not just nonchalantly remark that the baby seems to have just started deteriorating.

I think this entire trial will hinge on the insulin cases.

JMO.

I agree totally about Baby K

 

[JosieJo]

Perhaps it is cynical of me, but I don't have trouble believing management fobbed anyone off.

And perhaps there were really subtle signs in the incubator which Dr. J isn't able to articulate well (exact position of tube in baby's mouth, condition of fixation equipment, etc), but the news that the baby was active and not sedated definitely makes accidental dislodgement more plausible. I don't know if this testimony has helped the prosecution's case, so far but that is JMO.

I agree about the fobbing off

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Ok, the newest testimony from Elizabeth Morgan important because it tells what the unit culture is like. I think that matters.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

I agree about the fobbing off

LOL sometimes I think that is the one thing all healthcare workers can agree on.

 

[JosieJo]

This gives more detail

Dr Ravi Jayaram told the jury at Manchester Crown Court that his team first told senior management about their concerns re the nurse in October 2015 but she was not removed from front-line nursing duties for another 8 months.

Dr Jayaram said the team told the senior director of nursing in autumn 2015 but nothing was done. He said it was raised again in February 2016, and the hospital’s medical director was told at this point. The doctors asked for a meeting but didn’t hear back for another 3 months.

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[marynnu]

very very plain speak here - and mods pls delete if its not right - but as a British person of Indian /Asian origin myself - scary and difficult to speak out and accuse for anyone in this situation, but esp so as a non white person. I know that does not excuse a delay. and we still dont even know if LL is innocent or guilty anyway but just talking to possibly why he hesitated and made sure before speaking out . I might not be right at all.

He's a doctor, I don't see this as a factor at all.

 

[WaxLyrical]

This gives more detail

Dr Ravi Jayaram told the jury at Manchester Crown Court that his team first told senior management about their concerns re the nurse in October 2015 but she was not removed from front-line nursing duties for another 8 months.

Dr Jayaram said the team told the senior director of nursing in autumn 2015 but nothing was done. He said it was raised again in February 2016, and the hospital’s medical director was told at this point. The doctors asked for a meeting but didn’t hear back for another 3 months.

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Interesting.

So Child A-I happened June to October.
Child J in November.
Then we’re on to K in February.

So K would have been only the 2nd alleged victim of LL’s since doctors raised concerns about her to senior management.

 

[scottishgal]

have there been any more air embolism rashes or insulin bag contamination since post 2016 at that hospital ?

wont that have to be proved by prosecution ? did statistics go back down to normal again at that NNU post LL being not allowed in those 4 rooms anymore. Dont feel like they covered the stats for 2017-2022 again - just in case they had the wrong person ??

 

[scottishgal]

I am following the case but still struggling how they are so sure the bags were not a defective batch from the ......bag producer...the makers of the TPN bags

hope this is not confirmation bias or whatever the term is

 

[ColourPurple]

Perhaps it is cynical of me, but I don't have trouble believing management fobbed anyone off.

And perhaps there were really subtle signs in the incubator which Dr. J isn't able to articulate well (exact position of tube in baby's mouth, condition of fixation equipment, etc), but the news that the baby was active and not sedated definitely makes accidental dislodgement more plausible. I don't know if this testimony has helped the prosecution's case, so far but that is JMO.

It's going to come down to whether the jury believe that within that THREE minutes between Baby K's designated nurse leaving her and LL being found next to her cot:

1. The baby became active enough to dislodge the tube that was taped to her headgear, and for her oxygen levels to drop below 80%
2. The monitor malfunctioned and didn't alarm when the oxygen levels dropped below 90% like it normally would.

It would IMO be a coincidence for both things to happen at once within that short three minute timeframe while the designated nurse wasn't there. And an even bigger coincidence that it happened while the nurse who was present at so many other incidents of alleged harm, was present. Not impossible, of course, but for the jury to decide.
All just IMO