UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13

[marynnu]

Could the injury have happened after the intubation at 3pm?

Probably way off the mark but looking at some pictures of what intubated newborns it looks like tape around their mouths with the gizmo taped in place so minimal cries/screaming heard.

In fact, you shouldn't be able to hear any sound at all when a baby is intubated as the ET tube goes through the vocal cords. If you do, the tube has come out!
This baby was moved into Room 1 by now. I'm guessing there was a lot going on, with people rushing about sorting stuff out. So not sure if anyone would have the opportunity to do deliberate harm.

 

[marynnu]

Off topic but the reaction to weather in this country is ridiculous. Weather warnings every time it's hot in summer, cold in winter, or rainy or windy or foggy at any time. Every stiff breeze is a named storm. Every hottest part of summer is a "heatwave" or a "drought".

How do they think people in southern Europe cope when it is regularly that hot throughout summer? Or people in Scandinavia where it's snowy all winter?

Summer gets hot. Winter gets cold. It's normal and should not be a reason to shut down the whole country.

One requirement could be for all-weather tyres to be fitted to cars to ensure the roads don't get shut down when it occasionally snows.

Incidentally, I'm on the warm south coast and haven't even had a frost this snowy spell

The problem in the UK is the unpredictability. If you live in Norway or southern Spain you know what to expect. In Britain the weather can change almost hourly!

 

[Marantz4250b]

The problem in the UK is the unpredictability. If you live in Norway or southern Spain you know what to expect. In Britain the weather can change almost hourly!

Aint that the truth?? Here, this morning bright sun; 30 minutes ago dark skies and huge hail stones; right now bright sun again!

The thing about the unpredictability, though, is that it's, well, entirely predictable! Yes, the weather varies a great deal but we know it's going to and we know that it's exceedingly rare for it to vary to the extremes of each end. The issue, I think, is that the Met Office and the papers tend to "sex-up" the warnings because in the case of the MO it's better to over-egg it than under and the press because it's click-bait. When the MO and the press are saying "you might die on your way to work" it's really easy for people to call in and say they aren't going in today - especially on a Friday!!

The whole thing is ridiculous because unless you live on a hill in Wales or Scotland or the Dales then the roads aren't that bad at all and are entirely passable - people just need to drive to the conditions. It's not rocket science.

EDIT: and the second I pressed "post reply" the hail is back!

 

[marynnu]

Aint that the truth?? Here, this morning bright sun; 30 minutes ago dark skies and huge hail stones; right now bright sun again!

The thing about the unpredictability, though, is that it's, well, entirely predictable! Yes, the weather varies a great deal but we know it's going to and we know that it's exceedingly rare for it to vary to the extremes of each end. The issue, I think, is that the Met Office and the papers tend to "sex-up" the warnings because in the case of the MO it's better to over-egg it than under and the press because it's click-bait. When the MO and the press are saying "you might die on your way to work" it's really easy for people to call in and say they aren't going in today - especially on a Friday!!

The whole thing is ridiculous because unless you live on a hill in Wales or Scotland or the Dales then the roads aren't that bad at all and are entirely passable - people just need to drive to the conditions. It's not rocket science.

EDIT: and the second I pressed "post reply" the hail is back!

Well, it took my husband's friend 2 hours to do what should be a 20-minute journey to work this morning! And people were getting totally stuck yesterday. This is in Brum. Said friend is now considering putting on a Tshirt & sunbathing.

 

[Legal]

Aint that the truth?? Here, this morning bright sun; 30 minutes ago dark skies and huge hail stones; right now bright sun again!

The thing about the unpredictability, though, is that it's, well, entirely predictable! Yes, the weather varies a great deal but we know it's going to and we know that it's exceedingly rare for it to vary to the extremes of each end. The issue, I think, is that the Met Office and the papers tend to "sex-up" the warnings because in the case of the MO it's better to over-egg it than under and the press because it's click-bait. When the MO and the press are saying "you might die on your way to work" it's really easy for people to call in and say they aren't going in today - especially on a Friday!!

The whole thing is ridiculous because unless you live on a hill in Wales or Scotland or the Dales then the roads aren't that bad at all and are entirely passable - people just need to drive to the conditions. It's not rocket science.

EDIT: and the second I pressed "post reply" the hail is back!

I love the idea of the predictable unpredictability! I moan about it but I loved in a country in south east asia where it was the same weather every single day and it was so boring!

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Thank you, Mary. This is exactly the kind of reply I was hoping to get from someone medical, as I couldn’t understand how or why no screaming would have been reported from a baby suffering a liver injury.

I agree with Mary. Pain often causes babies to shut down. Think "fight, flight, freeze." Babies can't fight or flight on their own, so they cry (so the adult can fight or flight for them). If pain or other noxious sensory information overwhelms their ability to cope, they shut down, and then they look like they are sleeping. This is a protective reaction because it's the only way they can control the flow of sensory information. In more extreme cases some will even go limp and appear "dead" and have a bradycardia. The liver injury sounds very serious - it's a very vascular organ. JMO.

 

[Dotta]

Aint that the truth?? Here, this morning bright sun; 30 minutes ago dark skies and huge hail stones; right now bright sun again!

The thing about the unpredictability, though, is that it's, well, entirely predictable! Yes, the weather varies a great deal but we know it's going to and we know that it's exceedingly rare for it to vary to the extremes of each end. The issue, I think, is that the Met Office and the papers tend to "sex-up" the warnings because in the case of the MO it's better to over-egg it than under and the press because it's click-bait. When the MO and the press are saying "you might die on your way to work" it's really easy for people to call in and say they aren't going in today - especially on a Friday!!

The whole thing is ridiculous because unless you live on a hill in Wales or Scotland or the Dales then the roads aren't that bad at all and are entirely passable - people just need to drive to the conditions. It's not rocket science.

EDIT: and the second I pressed "post reply" the hail is back!

It is something safe to talk about - when uncomfortable silence falls haha

 

[Sweeper2000]

It is something safe to talk about - when uncomfortable silence falls haha

Makes you wonder what people prefer falling. Snow or uncomfortable silences.

talk about a shower of.

 

[Anxala]

I really don’t get this point - can anyone explain for a simpleton ?

Thanks for asking for clarity, from another simpleton.

God bless those leaves on the line …

And let us not forget the “wrong type of snow” and “slippery rain”.

And remember the 'right type of snow but the wrong type of quantity' from that Johnson creature when he was mayor of London.

 

[Dotta]

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[esther43]

Baby E was also in an incubator and was allegedly screaming so loudly due to alleged trauma inflicted to his throat that his mother heard him him in corridor .

Baby N (34 weeker) was also reported as screaming from his incubator.

I don’t dispute the liver trauma at all. No question it was there .

The question I was raising in my earlier comments was that if the prosecution are saying that this liver trauma was caused several hours before death ( which is what dr evans said, as he attributed the problems the baby had during the morning of his death to the liver trauma ), why wasn’t the baby screaming? Because I would have thought that it would have been painful enough to cause screaming. If an alleged attack on a baby’s throat causing bleeding from the mouth (like baby E) causes sufficient pain to make a baby in an incubator make such audible screams, I would have thought that a liver injury (assuming it is a painful thing) would definitely cause audible screaming

 

[esther43]

Baby E was also in an incubator and was allegedly screaming so loudly due to alleged trauma inflicted to his throat that his mother heard him him in corridor .

Baby N (34 weeker) was also reported as screaming from his incubator.

I don’t dispute the liver trauma at all. No question it was there .

The question I was raising in my earlier comments was that if the prosecution are saying that this liver trauma was caused several hours before death ( which is what dr evans said, as he attributed the problems the baby had during the morning of his death to the liver trauma ), why wasn’t the baby screaming? Because I would have thought that it would have been painful enough to cause screaming. If an alleged attack on a baby’s throat causing bleeding from the mouth (like baby E) causes sufficient pain to make a baby in an incubator make such audible screams, I would have thought that a liver injury (assuming it is a painful thing) would definitely cause audible screaming .

You would have to be close proximity to hear a baby scream. Naturally if the baby is in an incubator it will muffle the sound, but even if not, still a much quieter scream due to size and lung capacity of baby. Also, Mary mentioned going into shock which I could imagine to be quite true if you had a your liver lacerated.
Would you expect an adult to scream during in a car injury say, that caused damage. Your organs could be closing down, goodness knows the ins and outs of it all medically. I can only give you my experience from being on neonatal units (alot)

 

[Dotta]

I once read that liver trauma is almost painless.
Is it true?
Liver is also called a "silent organ" b/c even if failure of it occurs the symptoms often go unnoticed.

JMO

 

[Kemug]

I wonder i f it could have been caused by something like repeated pressure? The PM suggested vigorous CPR, so presumably that would be a possibility.

But surely if CPR is now suggested as the cause, then why wasn't the possibility of liver damage in peoples' minds when they were giving the CPR?

 

[katydid23]

SUSPECTED baby-killer Lucy Letby insisted an infant stayed in her care hours before he died, her trial heard yesterday.The claim came from fellow nurse Melanie Taylor, who said she had a “gut instinct” the child might be deteriorating.

Lucy Letby trial: Parents of sole surviving triplet 'begged' for newborn transfer after her brothers' deaths

Chester, United Kingdom: The parents of a newborn triplet pleaded with medical staff to move Lucy Letby, a nurse, to a separate facility after she killed her

qzqnews.com

‘No way is he staying in this hospital’​

Triplett’s father spoke to detectives in an emotional video interview that was played for the jury. The father said, “The transport team struggled with Baby P for probably 10 to 15 minutes. He died shortly after they arrived, there was nothing more they could do. We begged them to take him while they were there. (The boy survived).”

He added, “We said ‘there is no way he can stay in this hospital, you have to take him, otherwise we will take him ourselves’ but obviously he was too young. They agreed to take him.” The court was told that Letby allegedly brought the two dead babies, who were on special cold beds, to meet their parents before transferring their son. Dad said, “I’m pretty sure it was Lucy Letby who took those two boys to us in the cold box. I’m sure it was her, 110%.”

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I don't think it was the hospital itself the parents were freaking out about.

LL was the designated nurse for both babies, and was their primary hands on nurse. I feel like they were desperate to get their surviving son away from that room and that caretaker before their only son met the same fate.

 

[marynnu]

But surely if CPR is now suggested as the cause, then why wasn't the possibility of liver damage in peoples' minds when they were giving the CPR?

I think my post was ambiguous, sorry for that. I meant that maybe the injury could have been caused by pressure to the abdomen, in the same way you compress the chest during CPR.
I don't think anybody considers liver damage during neonatal CPR as in real life it's not a thing, IMO. For example, a system of updating neonatal resus skills was introduced some years back. It lasts a full day & you are assessed using dummies. It's never mentioned!

 

[esther43]

I think my post was ambiguous, sorry for that. I meant that maybe the injury could have been caused by pressure to the abdomen, in the same way you compress the chest during CPR.
I don't think anybody considers liver damage during neonatal CPR as in real life it's not a thing, IMO. For example, a system of updating neonatal resus skills was introduced some years back. It lasts a full day & you are assessed using dummies. It's never mentioned!

On the matter of this and having zero experience of rescussitating myself, if liver perforation was a possibility, would we not be seeing broken ribs on the x-ray? It seems like the only way that a liver could be damaged in resus.

 

[marynnu]

On the matter of this and having zero experience of rescussitating myself, if liver perforation was a possibility, would we not be seeing broken ribs on the x-ray? It seems like the only way that a liver could be damaged in resus.

IMO you are correct. Compared to adults neonatal CPR is quite gentle - the sternum & ribs are relatively soft, so just small quick compressions using either 2 fingers for tinies or your thumbs with bigger babies is enough. You'd have to do something quite mad to injure the liver I think.

 

[marynnu]

SUSPECTED baby-killer Lucy Letby insisted an infant stayed in her care hours before he died, her trial heard yesterday.The claim came from fellow nurse Melanie Taylor, who said she had a “gut instinct” the child might be deteriorating.

Lucy Letby trial: Parents of sole surviving triplet 'begged' for newborn transfer after her brothers' deaths

Chester, United Kingdom: The parents of a newborn triplet pleaded with medical staff to move Lucy Letby, a nurse, to a separate facility after she killed her

qzqnews.com

‘No way is he staying in this hospital’​

Triplett’s father spoke to detectives in an emotional video interview that was played for the jury. The father said, “The transport team struggled with Baby P for probably 10 to 15 minutes. He died shortly after they arrived, there was nothing more they could do. We begged them to take him while they were there. (The boy survived).”

He added, “We said ‘there is no way he can stay in this hospital, you have to take him, otherwise we will take him ourselves’ but obviously he was too young. They agreed to take him.” The court was told that Letby allegedly brought the two dead babies, who were on special cold beds, to meet their parents before transferring their son. Dad said, “I’m pretty sure it was Lucy Letby who took those two boys to us in the cold box. I’m sure it was her, 110%.”

================================================================

I don't think it was the hospital itself the parents were freaking out about.

LL was the designated nurse for both babies, and was their primary hands on nurse. I feel like they were desperate to get their surviving son away from that room and that caretaker before their only son met the same fate.

I don't think they were necessarily thinking of LL as a threat - apart from anything else, the 3rd baby was in another room. They just wanted to be out of CoC.

 

[Tortoise]

There is also the matter of the observations for child O which the prosecution says were factually false.

opening speech -
"Letby had taken Child O's observations at 2.30pm as 100% oxygen saturations and normal breathing rates.
From her phone, she was on Facebook Messenger at the time, and at 2.39pm, the door entry system recorded her coming into the neonatal unit.
Within a few minutes of that, Child O suffered his first collapse."


Court continuing to be shown sequencing evidence for the case of Child O (these included prescriptions, door swipe data, messages between Ms Letby and others etc)
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

A doctor notes: 'Called to see [Child O] at [about] 1440. Desaturation, bradycardia and mottled. Bagged up and transferred to Nursery 1. Neopuff requirement in 100% oxygen...'
Letby records: 'Approx 1440 [Child O] had a profound desaturation to 30s followed by bradycardia. Mottled++ and abdomen red and distended...'
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, March 8


She was writing up her notes retrospectively after the end of her shift that night.

In police interview, Letby said [...] She responded first at 2.40pm and discovered mottling all over with purple blotches and red rash. She said that his abdomen just kept swelling and suggested that sometimes babies can gulp air when they are receiving assistance from Optiflow, as Child O was.
Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders