UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[Tortoise]

Why not? That’s her livelihood and seemingly life on the line. That’s worth fighting for.

Because 'evidence' is a very nuanced word that misses the mark with innocent error. Why would a person think they have no evidence of an as yet undetermined error they didn't know if they made?

If she thought she was off for making errors a more apt thought to jot down would be 'they haven't told me what I did wrong', not 'they have no evidence'. IMO

 

[Cardgame]

This wasn't part of that post-it note.

For me the issue with the post it note, and how it talks about 'evidence' is that it doesn't feel like the way an innocent person might think about being falsely accused. IMO.

JMO, but if someone accused me of a crime, I feel like I'd say 'No! I didn't do that! Why do you think I did ? What has caused you to accuse me?'

My instinct wouldn't be to say 'there isn't any evidence' because... well.. how would I know? If you've been accused of something you didn't do, then you're going to assume there IS evidence, which has mistakenly implicated you. And you would desperately want to hear it/see it: 'What is the evidence? Why do you think this?'

How would an innocent person 'know' there is no evidence? You'd be afraid that there WAS evidence! Being accused is scary. You'd worry that somehow, there was 'evidence' that implicated you, even while knowing that you didn't do anything wrong.

Whereas... A guilty person might know that they have gone to all possible lengths to conceal evidence/not leave an evidence trail and might therefore more confidently be able to say 'they have no evidence' [even if they are mistaken due to superiority complex or similar. Some criminals eg Narcissistic psychopaths have a tendency to believe they are cleverer than everyone else] [not saying LL is one, just using that as an example].

Not to say that there isn't another explanation, but for me that's why it's firing off suspicious feelings in my instinct/reaction brain.

 

[Sweeper2000]

This is the part that I don't get. The defence say:

"She was "going through a grievance procedure" with the NHS at the time, the court hears, and knew what was being said about her before her arrest.

The allegations were "destructive", the court hears.

The note is headed 'not good enough'. The defence notes it does not say 'guilty'.

So the defence are arguing that, she did know about the allegations and this prompted her write.

'i killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them'

He then goes on to say 'it does not say guilty'

No .. it just says 'I DID THIS' ??

Yeh I always thought the “this” was a direct reference to the allegations as a total, I’d be more concerned if she had of said “I did it”. IMO the “this” suggests psychological distancing.

anyone in her shoes and on that unit would probably be able to figure out what would be behind the suspension from clinical duties of a prominent and i think key member of staff. after a year of everyone talking about the deaths but I agree with seemingly everyone that many-of the staff had kind of become used to the deaths, i think everyone would know what is going on behind the scenes. We also know LL said herself she always seemed to be in the middle of it. Really wouldn’t take much to put 2 and 2 together. You would have to argue that they were totally unaware of how unusual this number of deaths was.

 

[ColourPurple]

...
Whereas... A guilty person might know that they have gone to all possible lengths to conceal evidence/not leave an evidence trail and might therefore more confidently be able to say 'they have no evidence' [even if they are mistaken due to superiority complex or similar. Some criminals eg Narcissistic psychopaths have a tendency to believe they are cleverer than everyone else] [not saying LL is one, just using that as an example].

Not to say that there isn't another explanation, but for me that's why it's firing off suspicious feelings in my instinct/reaction brain.

Exactly!

Whether "they" is referring to the hospital or the police, LL stating "they have no evidence" doesn't neccessarily mean somebody has told her they have no evidence. If guilty, it could just mean she is absolutely convinced that she didn't leave any evidence for them to find. Whether that's in connection with whatever she raised in her grievance, or the police investigation.

IMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

For me the issue with the post it note, and how it talks about 'evidence' is that it doesn't feel like the way an innocent person might think about being falsely accused. IMO.

JMO, but if someone accused me of a crime, I feel like I'd say 'No! I didn't do that! Why do you think I did ? What has caused you to accuse me?'

My instinct wouldn't be to say 'there isn't any evidence' because... well.. how would I know? If you've been accused of something you didn't do, then you're going to assume there IS evidence, which has mistakenly implicated you. And you would desperately want to hear it/see it: 'What is the evidence? Why do you think this?'

How would an innocent person 'know' there is no evidence? You'd be afraid that there WAS evidence! Being accused is scary. You'd worry that somehow, there was 'evidence' that implicated you, even while knowing that you didn't do anything wrong.

Whereas... A guilty person might know that they have gone to all possible lengths to conceal evidence/not leave an evidence trail and might therefore more confidently be able to say 'they have no evidence' [even if they are mistaken due to superiority complex or similar. Some criminals eg Narcissistic psychopaths have a tendency to believe they are cleverer than everyone else] [not saying LL is one, just using that as an example].

Not to say that there isn't another explanation, but for me that's why it's firing off suspicious feelings in my instinct/reaction brain.

what makes you think she didn’t ask if they had evidence? Then was told no and then thought “it’s a baseless accusation“. even if extremely tireless efforts had been made to conceal any evidence one still couldn’t say they know there is no evidence. She would have to have been told. Also if someone knows they are innocent they might surmise that “they couldn’t possibly have any evidence because I haven’t done anything wrong“. i would argue much more strongly that a knowingly innocent person would be much much more confident in saying “they have no evidence“ because they know they are innocent than a guilty person looking back and thinking “but I covered everything“. the guilty person can’t know what the investigation has revealed whereas the innocent person can plant their feet and say with certainty “I havent done anything wrong“. imo

 

[esther43]

Yeh I always thought the “this” was a direct reference to the allegations as a total, I’d be more concerned if she had of said “I did it”. IMO the “this” suggests psychological distancing.

anyone in her shoes and on that unit would probably be able to figure out what would be behind the suspension from clinical duties of a prominent and i think key member of staff. after a year of everyone talking about the deaths but I agree with seemingly everyone that many-of the staff had kind of become used to the deaths, i think everyone would know what is going on behind the scenes. We also know LL said herself she always seemed to be in the middle of it. Really wouldn’t take much to put 2 and 2 together. You would have to argue that they were totally unaware of how unusual this number of deaths was.

I agree that 'i did it' would be worse than 'i did this' but the fact there is a 'this' in the first place does suggest that LL is at this point believing that babies had been harmed. Baring in mind this is written before the police interview.
Then there's the 'i am evil' which is not so easy to explain.
On your last point about everyone knowing what's going on behind the scenes, true story!
Would her peers have been shocked at the hospital moving her to admin? Surely at the time people would be in disbelief that she had been singled out and moved to clerical duties? (Whatever the 'rumours' were previously)
The steep decline in deaths following her removal would have had a substantial impact on how others in her team viewed her involvement.

 

[Tortoise]

what makes you think she didn’t ask if they had evidence?

the hospital wasn't investigating so they wouldn't be able to answer her.

 

[ColourPurple]

I agree that 'i did it' would be worse than 'i did this' but the fact there is a 'this' in the first place does suggest that LL is at this point believing that babies had been harmed. Baring in mind this is written before the police interview.
Then there's the 'i am evil' which is not so easy to explain.

I don't think her use of the word "this" over "it" is that important, when in the same note she also says "I killed them on purpose" .

IMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Does anyone know enough about employment rights in regards To what information one can ask for if suspended from duties pending investigation. I would guess you are 100% entitled to know the reasons for your suspension and the presence or not at that point of any evidence for the suspension.

she may well have been anticipating that they had already investigated her. I’ll try and find out.

im just trying to picture exactly what was said to her in the interview where she was told about being put on clerical. Judging by the comments from senior staff “not nice lucy” I would expect them to have at least some concern for both parties in this situation. I would not necessarily expect them to be for or against but trying to act as the middle and in homage to her highly thought of status would inform her that they had no evidence. I think divulging that info if it’s not required by law would be offered as a reassurance to LL. a way for senior management to communicate that they do indeed have everyone’s back.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I agree that 'i did it' would be worse than 'i did this' but the fact there is a 'this' in the first place does suggest that LL is at this point believing that babies had been harmed. Baring in mind this is written before the police interview.
Then there's the 'i am evil' which is not so easy to explain.
On your last point about everyone knowing what's going on behind the scenes, true story!
Would her peers have been shocked at the hospital moving her to admin? Surely at the time people would be in disbelief that she had been singled out and moved to clerical duties? (Whatever the 'rumours' were previously)
The steep decline in deaths following her removal would have had a substantial impact on how others in her team viewed her involvement.

the “I am evil” could easily be taken as someone speaking figuratively or from the mindset of someone placing themselves in the shoes of someone who actually had done it. Depends how much weight you add to it.

im confident the unit more or less as a whole were in utter disbelief when they moved her to clerical. The pers coms give absolutely no indication that she was indeed suspected by her fellow nurses or indeed senior staff, they all seem mostly tight. Including some docs. I can imagine them trying to reassure her whilst being on clerical, giving her some fuel to stay and see it through. i couldn’t really say what happened after, with it being downgraded to a L1 though. Probably zero deaths at all. Remember none of the nurses testimony has actually been damning of her at all, they didn’t see anythin or even reported concerns or anything at all. I might guess that they thought the same of her but will without a doubt be looking to the Verdict.

 

[Bakers]

Evidence is the 1st word that I would think of if I was accused of any crime.obviously the note isn't seen as a confession of guilt it was found in her house search in 2018 so to me doesn't carry much weight when it came to her being charged

 

[Tortoise]

Evidence is the 1st word that I would think of if I was accused of any crime.obviously the note isn't seen as a confession of guilt it was found in her house search in 2018 so to me doesn't carry much weight when it came to her being charged

well exactly, but her note saying "evidence" was written before she was accused of a crime.

 

[DianaWW]

Evidence is the 1st word that I would think of if I was accused of any crime.obviously the note isn't seen as a confession of guilt it was found in her house search in 2018 so to me doesn't carry much weight when it came to her being charged

She hadn’t been accused of a crime at this point though. The note was written before her arrest.

 

[WaxLyrical]

But she understood that some wrongdoing or misconduct was alleged, and at least it was inferred by her being moved to admin duties. The word ‘evidence’ would still be relevant in that context, she doesn’t need to have been arrested by police on suspicion of murder for that word to be relevant.

Personally using the word evidence seems normal to me. But then I also work in a job where we use the word regularly and not limited to criminal matters.

I suppose as with everything here it’s about the bigger picture and how everything all adds up. JMO.

 

[bbsaz]

I wonder if we will get to see the texts with her colleagues once she was moved to admin duties?

Its not completely the same, but when a colleague was suspended, we were all told we werent allowed to communicate with them. But this is only being reassigned, so surely she would have many text conversations with her mates at this point, esp Jennifer Key Jones

 

[Tortoise]

But she understood that some wrongdoing or misconduct was alleged, and at least it was inferred by her being moved to admin duties. The word ‘evidence’ would still be relevant in that context, she doesn’t need to have been arrested by police on suspicion of murder for that word to be relevant.

Personally using the word evidence seems normal to me. But then I also work in a job where we use the word regularly and not limited to criminal matters.

I suppose as with everything here it’s about the bigger picture and how everything all adds up. JMO.

I don't think it was understood that wrongdoing or misconduct was alleged.

The deaths were being investigated to see if they were natural or otherwise, or due to services, and the defence says they were all natural or due to services. The outcome of the initial investigation was not known to police until her arrest and it was a confidential process.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder if we will get to see the texts with her colleagues once she was moved to admin duties?

Its not completely the same, but when a colleague was suspended, we were all told we werent allowed to communicate with them. But this is only being reassigned, so surely she would have many text conversations with her mates at this point, esp Jennifer Key Jones

I have wondered about her line saying 'why have I had to hide away?'

 

[Tortoise]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
Liverpool was Feb 2016, before baby K.

"A further review of collapses at the unit from a neonatologist based at Liverpool Women's Hospital took place in February 2016, the court was told. Dr Brearey said he sent a report of those findings to the director of nursing and the hospital's medical director as he asked for another meeting.

He confirmed that during this period there was no formal complaint made to the police."
Doctor asked for Lucy Letby to be taken off shift, court hears

"She was moved to clerical duties where she would not come into contact with children."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

 

[esther43]

the “I am evil” could easily be taken as someone speaking figuratively or from the mindset of someone placing themselves in the shoes of someone who actually had done it. Depends how much weight you add to it.

im confident the unit more or less as a whole were in utter disbelief when they moved her to clerical. The pers coms give absolutely no indication that she was indeed suspected by her fellow nurses or indeed senior staff, they all seem mostly tight. Including some docs. I can imagine them trying to reassure her whilst being on clerical, giving her some fuel to stay and see it through. i couldn’t really say what happened after, with it being downgraded to a L1 though. Probably zero deaths at all. Remember none of the nurses testimony has actually been damning of her at all, they didn’t see anythin or even reported concerns or anything at all. I might guess that they thought the same of her but will without a doubt be looking to the Verdict.

 

[JosieJo]

JMO .. but I would imagine she would have been sent to work in one of the offices away from the children's and neonatal unit.
It's possible that sometime after this ..who knows how long after ..she may have put a grievance in about being made to stay away from her Job.

I'd be surprised if she stayed on clerical duties for the entire time ..I'd imagine she would have been suspended on full pay at some point until charged