UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[Sweeper2000]

That explains it I think. Was the police that joined the dots regarding any potential reasons for a trial. But if the policy is to tell the member of staff the reasons why the investigation is being pursued further they would have to tell her something like “we have no evidence that these deaths are unnatural but they are unexpected so we are handing them to the police for further investigation“. We don’t see a mention of deaths until after the police investigation started after which she will have been informed of the reasons and that they did indeed have no evidence that she had done anything leading to the deaths.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It’s also true that generally speaking the prosecution have not offered much in the way of evidence to say she actually did do anything same as the internal investigation. They still have no evidence really that she did so that hasn’t changed but the diagnosis has. All circumstantial.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Put yourself in a managers shoes. You have to tell a member of your staff that you are passing the med notes onto the police because there is a number of unexplained deaths and you have to tell them of any evidence for it. If you were Karen Rees you would definitely include the no evidence part.

 

[DianaWW]

We don’t know what their policy was or what she was told though. Not yet.

And it’s not true that she was suspended after an internal investigation.

‘She continued to undertake clerical duties at the hospital until July 2018, when she was first arrested.’

Lucy Letby: doctor asked for nurse to be removed from duties, trial hears

Hospital boss refused to remove Letby from shift despite colleagues raising concerns about her presence and series of infant deaths

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Dotta]

We don’t know what their policy was or what she was told though. Not yet.

And it’s not true that she was suspended after an internal investigation.

‘She continued to undertake clerical duties at the hospital until July 2018, when she was first arrested.’

Lucy Letby: doctor asked for nurse to be removed from duties, trial hears

Hospital boss refused to remove Letby from shift despite colleagues raising concerns about her presence and series of infant deaths

amp.theguardian.com

What exactly were these clerical duties?

Like:
- answering the phone?
- organizing appointments?
- faxes?
- making copies of documents?

I simply cannot imagine my surprise if I was "out of the blue" given such a position.
Removed from my profession.

JMO

 

[scottishgal]

Quick opinion on the Cognitive behavioural therapy worksheet format potentially relating to the post it note of LL. I am a big follower of CBT self therapy , I have all the books - and I do worksheets a lot on any paper i find lying around (it basically follows on easily from being a list maker and a journal writer) .
I have written so often things like

I messed this up (job , marriage, whatever else is bothering me)
I am always doing this (messing up)
I am never going to feel better about this
Everyone must think I am a joke, people probably think I am very physically unattractive, remember that one person who literally appeared repulsed when I came on too strong

And then follows the dispute which I agree may be on another paper and not on the same page

1. I tried my best
2. I never intended to hurt anyone, I was angry when I yelled and now i feel sorry /wish I had handled it better
3. I know my heart is in the right place
4. This feeling too shall pass
5. There are nice people respect and appreciate me, and what about that really hot guy who told me I have a beautiful face , ah yes he did.

Sorry I wasnt trying to be facetious, but just laying it all out there , its hard for me to see how as negative as our thoughts can be sometimes, 'I am evil' , 'I did this on purpose' - still sounds darker on a different level. even if she was talking about something else and not the alleged killings in question here. Only IMO, and my stomach churns not only for the babies and the families , but also at the possibility we have so many ppl potentially walking around in so much trauma or pain, that something like this could potentially happen deliberately. All IMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

We don’t know what their policy was or what she was told though. Not yet.

And it’s not true that she was suspended after an internal investigation.

‘She continued to undertake clerical duties at the hospital until July 2018, when she was first arrested.’

Lucy Letby: doctor asked for nurse to be removed from duties, trial hears

Hospital boss refused to remove Letby from shift despite colleagues raising concerns about her presence and series of infant deaths

amp.theguardian.com

I’ve got it. Here’s the coch policy regarding disciplinary actions and whistleblowing and the procedures.

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/86654/pf_revised_and_agreed__new_concerns_about_patient_care_and_whistle_blowing_policy__v4_mg_16.12.13.doc

Staff whose conduct is being investigated, have the right to be made aware of all relevant information obtained in the course of the investigation.
If necessary the investigation will be carried out under the terms of strict confidentiality, i.e. by not informing the subject of the disclosure until (or if) it becomes appropriate to do so. This may be appropriate in cases of suspected fraud or when there would be the possibility of irreparable damage to the working relationship of the people concerned. In certain cases, however, such as allegations of ill treatment of patients, exclusion from work on full pay may have to be considered immediately. Protection of patients is paramount in all cases.
The designated officer will submit a written report to the Chief Executive setting out the findings of the investigation.
If, as the result of the investigation, the Chief Executive decides that there is a case to be answered by the person(s) against who the disclosure has been made, the Trust’s Disciplinary Procedure will be invoked. If there appears to be evidence of a criminal act, the Chief Executive will consult the Police before invoking the Disciplinary Procedure.

I think this is the relevant documentaction. Says the same. They would have to have informed her of everything at every step of the way. We also know she I think she wasn’t actually excluded from work. Again supports the no evidence aspect of the case, so they will have to have told her they have no evidence that she did anything.

 

[DianaWW]

I’ve got it. Here’s the coch policy regarding disciplinary actions and whistleblowing and the procedures.

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/86654/pf_revised_and_agreed__new_concerns_about_patient_care_and_whistle_blowing_policy__v4_mg_16.12.13.doc

Staff whose conduct is being investigated, have the right to be made aware of all relevant information obtained in the course of the investigation.
If necessary the investigation will be carried out under the terms of strict confidentiality, i.e. by not informing the subject of the disclosure until (or if) it becomes appropriate to do so. This may be appropriate in cases of suspected fraud or when there would be the possibility of irreparable damage to the working relationship of the people concerned. In certain cases, however, such as allegations of ill treatment of patients, exclusion from work on full pay may have to be considered immediately. Protection of patients is paramount in all cases.
The designated officer will submit a written report to the Chief Executive setting out the findings of the investigation.
If, as the result of the investigation, the Chief Executive decides that there is a case to be answered by the person(s) against who the disclosure has been made, the Trust’s Disciplinary Procedure will be invoked. If there appears to be evidence of a criminal act, the Chief Executive will consult the Police before invoking the Disciplinary Procedure.

I think this is the relevant documentaction. Says the same. They would have to have informed her of everything at every step of the way.

It literally says that they do not have to tell her everything.

If necessary the investigation will be carried out under the terms of strict confidentiality, i.e. by not informing the subject of the disclosure until (or if) it becomes appropriate to do so

And the second part you have bolded regarding suspension with pay is not relevant. She was not suspended, she was on clerical duties until her arrest. As the link I provided in my last post stated. Although it doesn’t say anything in that part about having to disclose all information to her either.

 

[scottishgal]

What exactly were these clerical duties?

Like:
- answering the phone?
- organizing appointments?
- faxes?
- making copies of documents?

I simply cannot imagine my surprise if I was "out of the blue" given such a position.
Removed from my profession.

JMO

Agreed Dotta , she must have known it was a serious allegation and investigation to be moved to clerical from frontline NICU nursing, very sad situation if innocent.

 

[ColourPurple]

Quick opinion on the Cognitive behavioural therapy worksheet format potentially relating to the post it note of LL. I am a big follower of CBT self therapy , I have all the books - and I do worksheets a lot on any paper i find lying around (it basically follows on easily from being a list maker and a journal writer) .
I have written so often things like

I messed this up (job , marriage, whatever else is bothering me)
I am always doing this (messing up)
I am never going to feel better about this
Everyone must think I am a joke, people probably think I am very physically unattractive, remember that one person who literally appeared repulsed when I came on too strong

And then follows the dispute which I agree may be on another paper and not on the same page

1. I tried my best
2. I never intended to hurt anyone, I was angry when I yelled and now i feel sorry /wish I had handled it better
3. I know my heart is in the right place
4. This feeling too shall pass
5. There are nice people respect and appreciate me, and what about that really hot guy who told me I have a beautiful face , ah yes he did.

Sorry I wasnt trying to be facetious, but just laying it all out there , its hard for me to see how as negative as our thoughts can be sometimes, 'I am evil' , 'I did this on purpose' - still sounds darker on a different level. even if she was talking about something else and not the alleged killings in question here. Only IMO, and my stomach churns not only for the babies and the families , but also at the possibility we have so many ppl potentially walking around in so much trauma or pain, that something like this could potentially happen deliberately. All IMO

The wording was "I killed them on purpose".

Now, I write stuff down a lot too but I can't think of any reason I would ever write down "I killed them on purpose" if I had done no such thing. It''s not like your examples where you're trying to see the positives in a situation, or trying to challenge negative thinking by turning "I messed this up" and then arguing "But I did my best".


IMO

 

[Anxala]

'they have no evidence' is a very strange thing to write, because (IMO) it speaks from a mind that has contemplated crime and evidence of crime. I'm not sure anyone would have said or implied anything to her about intention, the police investigation and medical investigation was to find out if crimes had been committed.

It's also worded in such a way as to imply knowledge of whether evidence was left behind or not.

IMO

But it's prefaced with “Why/how has this happened – what process has led to this current situation."

Unless we're to conclude that (a guilty) LL is so callously calculating that the notes she left 'lying around' were written with the sole intention of cynically padding out her claims of innocence, the above is the significant and meaningful bit imo, not the "they have no evidence" bit.

The ^ above surely can only have been written from the perspective of someone who has no idea why she's been removed from her job and/or become the primary suspect in a multiple murder investigation?

 

[esther43]

Put yourself in a managers shoes. You have to tell a member of your staff that you are passing the med notes onto the police because there is a number of unexplained deaths and you have to tell them of any evidence for it. If you were Karen Rees you would definitely include the no evidence part.

Agree. KR be like 'i am your biggest shitstorm cleverly disguised as your closest Alley. JMO

 

[Imogenia]

Put yourself in a managers shoes. You have to tell a member of your staff that you are passing the med notes onto the police because there is a number of unexplained deaths and you have to tell them of any evidence for it. If you were Karen Rees you would definitely include the no evidence part.

I believe that you’re correct.

My opinion.

 

[Imogenia]

It literally says that they do not have to tell her everything.

If necessary the investigation will be carried out under the terms of strict confidentiality, i.e. by not informing the subject of the disclosure until (or if) it becomes appropriate to do so

And the second part you have bolded regarding suspension with pay is not relevant. She was not suspended, she was on clerical duties until her arrest. As the link I provided in my last post stated. Although it doesn’t say anything in that part about having to disclose all information to her either.

Policies are interesting, (I also note that this one states the safety of patients is paramount). That is so obvious it arguably does not require stating. Or, maybe it does, given the carry on that the experienced medical consultants had when trying to escalate their concerns with the hospital executive.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It literally says that they do not have to tell her everything.

If necessary the investigation will be carried out under the terms of strict confidentiality, i.e. by not informing the subject of the disclosure until (or if) it becomes appropriate to do so

And the second part you have bolded regarding suspension with pay is not relevant. She was not suspended, she was on clerical duties until her arrest. As the link I provided in my last post stated. Although it doesn’t say anything in that part about having to disclose all information to her either.

No it says in certain cases they can withhold telling them until it becomes appropriate to do so ie when they pass the investigation on to the police for example. If they have no evidence she did anything they would have to tell her that and the reason why it’s being passed on. In this case it’s “we have unexpected deaths on the ward and the only link is you but he have no evidence it was you but are passing this onto the police“. that’s the only thing they could say to her. This explains the notes and gives an indication to which stage of the process they were written at IMO.

time period is at beginning of clerical duties, nothing said to LL as of yet. Relevant note is

On one note, she allegedly wrote: “Why/how has this happened – what process has led to this current situation. What allegations have been made and by who? Do they have written evidence to support their comments?”
This gives no indication to knowing about evidence or anything. This is also in line with the disciplinary procedure that recommends speaking with someone from a union at “first opportunity“ once a investigation has been undertaken officially.

the second note is probably written once this investigation had been concluded or at some part of it after being told about “no evidence“ and is also presumably after being put on clerical. She was on clerical for about a year right? That’s too long to have someone under investigation with no evidence and not tell them why.

“The jury was told that Letby wrote on another: “I haven’t done anything wrong and they have no evidence so why have I had to hide away?” This note implies imo that the investigation was not yet concluded or passed onto the police. Certainly gives no indication that she knows just how severe the situation was.

then chronologically the last note is the confession note once she has definitely been told exactly why there is an investigation. I think that makes sense considering the feel of the note. It’s self evident nature.

the second bolded passage is relevant to show that the internal investigation had no evidence as if they did she would have been suspended before op hummingbird. We know that though because it’s been in evidence that they needed the police to find anything. Tbh I think she is probably still suspended as there is no legal precedent to fire her at that stage. Have heard nothing to indicate her contract was terminated.

I would also assume they have to tell her something as it’s probably quite cruel to put someone under investigation without telling them why especially after time and without evidence.

Lucy Letby: police found note saying ‘I killed them on purpose’, court hears

Nurse accused of murdering seven babies on neonatal ward also wrote ‘I am a horrible evil person’, jury told

www.theguardian.com

all imo

 

[ColourPurple]

But it's prefaced with “Why/how has this happened – what process has led to this current situation."

Unless we're to conclude that (a guilty) LL is so callously calculating that the notes she left 'lying around' were written with the sole intention of cynically padding out her claims of innocence, the above is the significant and meaningful bit imo, not the "they have no evidence" bit.

The ^ above surely can only have been written from the perspective of someone who has no idea why she's been removed from her job and/or become the primary suspect in a murder investigation?

Hopefully it will become clearer once we hear the reason she was told she was being moved to clerical duties. Whatever she was told, we know it's not going to be "We think you deliberately killed and attempted to kill a number of babies" as that accusation came from the police a lot later.

The order of events seems to be that she was moved to clerical duties in June 2016 and then raised a grievance about that... and the police investigation started long after that in May 2017, and she wasnt arrested (on suspicion of murder and attempted murder)until July 2018.

So IMO although the "I am Evil "post it note mentions the police investigation so must have been written once she was aware that there was going to be one, the other notes could just be about the grievance procedure (and whatever reasons she was given for her removal), rather than about the police investigation. The why/how has this happened" "what process led to this situation" do sound like things somebody might write down in relation to a grievance about a decision to move them to another department IMO. And this article seems to imply the same IMO:

Along with the 'I am evil...' note, there were other written notes, the jury heard.

Mr Johnson said these included phrases such as 'Why/how has this happened - what process has led to this current situation. What allegations have been made and by who?' and 'Do they have written evidence to support their comments?'.

The prosecutor said that in her writings Letby expressed frustration because she was not being allowed back on the neonatal unit and wrote: 'I haven't done anything wrong and they have no evidence so why have I had to hide away?'

'I AM EVIL. I DID THIS': Post-It notes written by nurse Lucy Letby

On day four of her trial at Manchester Crown Court the jury was told that messages written by Lucy Letby, 32, were found at her home after her arrest including one that said: 'I killed them on purpose.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[esther43]

No it says in certain cases they can withhold telling them until it becomes appropriate to do so ie when they pass the investigation on to the police for example. If they have no evidence she did anything they would have to tell her that and the reason why it’s being passed on. In this case it’s “we have unexpected deaths on the ward and the only link is you but he have no evidence it was you but are passing this onto the police“. that’s the only thing they could say to her. This explains the notes and gives an indication to which stage of the process they were written at IMO.

time period is at beginning of clerical duties, nothing said to LL as of yet. Relevant note is

On one note, she allegedly wrote: “Why/how has this happened – what process has led to this current situation. What allegations have been made and by who? Do they have written evidence to support their comments?”
This gives no indication to knowing about evidence or anything. This is also in line with the disciplinary procedure that recommends speaking with someone from a union at “first opportunity“ once a investigation has been undertaken officially.

the second note is probably written once this investigation had been concluded or at some part of it after being told about “no evidence“ and is also presumably after being put on clerical. She was on clerical for about a year right? That’s too long to have someone under investigation with no evidence and not tell them why.

“The jury was told that Letby wrote on another: “I haven’t done anything wrong and they have no evidence so why have I had to hide away?” This note implies imo that the investigation was not yet concluded or passed onto the police. Certainly gives no indication that she knows just how severe the situation was.

then chronologically the last note is the confession note once she has definitely been told exactly why there is an investigation. I think that makes sense considering the feel of the note. It’s self evident nature.

the second bolded passage is relevant to show that the internal investigation had no evidence as if they did she would have been suspended before op hummingbird. We know that though because it’s been in evidence that they needed the police to find anything. Tbh I think she is probably still suspended as there is no legal precedent to fire her at that stage. Have heard nothing to indicate her contract was terminated.

I would also assume they have to tell her something as it’s probably quite cruel to put someone under investigation without telling them why especially after time and without evidence.

Lucy Letby: police found note saying ‘I killed them on purpose’, court hears

Nurse accused of murdering seven babies on neonatal ward also wrote ‘I am a horrible evil person’, jury told

www.theguardian.com

all imo

Agree with what you say regarding alignment. It would have been a staggered approach and NHS will have almost certainly sought outside advice on how to address situation. I wonder how closely they collaborated with those involved in the case of BA.

 

[DianaWW]

No it says in certain cases they can withhold telling them until it becomes appropriate to do so ie when they pass the investigation on to the police for example. If they have no evidence she did anything they would have to tell her that and the reason why it’s being passed on. In this case it’s “we have unexpected deaths on the ward and the only link is you but he have no evidence it was you but are passing this onto the police“. that’s the only thing they could say to her. This explains the notes and gives an indication to which stage of the process they were written at IMO.

time period is at beginning of clerical duties, nothing said to LL as of yet. Relevant note is

On one note, she allegedly wrote: “Why/how has this happened – what process has led to this current situation. What allegations have been made and by who? Do they have written evidence to support their comments?”
This gives no indication to knowing about evidence or anything. This is also in line with the disciplinary procedure that recommends speaking with someone from a union at “first opportunity“ once a investigation has been undertaken officially.

the second note is probably written once this investigation had been concluded or at some part of it after being told about “no evidence“ and is also presumably after being put on clerical. She was on clerical for about a year right? That’s too long to have someone under investigation with no evidence and not tell them why.

“The jury was told that Letby wrote on another: “I haven’t done anything wrong and they have no evidence so why have I had to hide away?” This note implies imo that the investigation was not yet concluded or passed onto the police. Certainly gives no indication that she knows just how severe the situation was.

then chronologically the last note is the confession note once she has definitely been told exactly why there is an investigation. I think that makes sense considering the feel of the note. It’s self evident nature.

the second bolded passage is relevant to show that the internal investigation had no evidence as if they did she would have been suspended before op hummingbird. We know that though because it’s been in evidence that they needed the police to find anything. Tbh I think she is probably still suspended as there is no legal precedent to fire her at that stage. Have heard nothing to indicate her contract was terminated.

I would also assume they have to tell her something as it’s probably quite cruel to put someone under investigation without telling them why especially after time and without evidence.

Lucy Letby: police found note saying ‘I killed them on purpose’, court hears

Nurse accused of murdering seven babies on neonatal ward also wrote ‘I am a horrible evil person’, jury told

www.theguardian.com

all imo

I agree they’d have to tell her ‘something’. My point was I don’t believe that anybody told her she was being investigated for deliberately harming the babies. They did not have to disclose that. As per the policy, they were within their rights to withhold information if required. Besides, once passed to police, not even the hospital knew for sure it would turn into a murder investigation.

 

[Dcflag]

“they have no evidence” could also relate to her feeling like the evidence they do have, or that she is aware of certain evidence, and that she just doesn’t believe it’s valid evidence ie; they have no evidence, what they do have is basically nothing

And in fairness if that were the case, what would they actually tell her? The collapses seem to correlate with your shifts? (Not really evidence in itself) we believe there has been poisoning/deliberate medication tampering? etc (again, she’s not the only person on the ward so this isn’t evidence she did anything) there are some of your fellow colleagues who have concerns about the care you’re delivering? (Again, we all know that could be anything from the general suspicion Dr J had down to someone voicing a general feeling or concern).

I really do hope that the poor reporting in the media of the trial is just that, and that the jury have a much clearer view of the prosecutions view than us. I also hope that they’re answering things were all asking but not seeing answers to (who chose to move her shifts, what was the reasoning for clerical duties, timeline of notes vs real time actions in the hospital/investigation etc etc)

 

[ColourPurple]

I agree they’d have to tell her ‘something’. My point was I don’t believe that anybody told her she was being investigated for deliberately harming the babies. They did not have to disclose that. As per the policy, they were within their rights to withhold information if required. Besides, once passed to police, not even the hospital knew for sure it would turn into a murder investigation.

We so need to hear what reason they gave her, for her move to clerical duties!