UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #16

[ColourPurple]

More info about what she was told in the phonecall on the 27th:

On June 27, 2016, Letby messaged a doctor colleague at 5.41pm: "Eirian [Lloyd Powell, neonatal unit manager] has just phoned telling me not to come in tonight & do days instead. I asked if there was a problem & she said No, just trying to protect me a bit & we can have a chat about it tomorrow but now I'm worried."

Letby also messaged a nursing colleague at the same time: "E just phoned telling me to do days this week and not Go in tonight as trying to protect me."...

After the nursing colleague asked: "What's that mean?", Letby replied: "I don't know. Asked if there was a problem and she said No just trying to protect me as had a difficult run just before holidays, less people on nights etc and we can have a chat etc tomorrow.

"But Im worried Im in trouble or something."

The nurse colleague replied: "Don't worry, how can you be in trouble you haven't done anything wrong.

"Just very unfortunate."

Letby: "I know but worrying in case they think i missed something or whatever. Why leave it til now to ring."

The nurse colleague replied: "It is very late I agree. Maybe she's getting pressure from elsewhere?"

Letby: "She said it's busy so more support for me on days and can look at the paperwork bits etc. She was nice enough I just worry. This job messes with your head"

Lucy Letby 'worried' she was 'in trouble' over baby deaths

LUCY LETBY messaged a nursing colleague: "If they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly" during a Countess of Chester Hospital…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[marynnu]

But you’re implying that I suggested his career should be ruined. That wasnt what I meant.
I said; I would be surprised if the gmc didn’t have something to say on the matter.

Whether that is informally, a discussion with him/asking for a fitness to practice meeting or whatever, that it’s possible they may want to discuss things with him. That is just part of being on the register as I know you will be aware. It’s not an unlikely thought to have that it’s possible the gmc may have questions too.

The thing is; he was aware there were an increased number of deaths in the unit etc. There was also the “chaos” between the triplets and baby Q, he was aware of all that.

He has a private and confidential discussion with another professional (doctor) via email and it was not up for disclosure the way it was with friends/nursing colleagues, lovers or whatever. It was a genuine concern for patient safety and he sent it to her.

Instead of stepping back and keeping that confidential very serious information to himself- he forwarded it to her leaving the paper trail to boot that “if” there indeed was someone harming patients in their team, the “grapevine” as they referred to it as would have all known about it.

Now I didn’t imply his career should be ruined, given the circumstances I meant that it’s possible (or at least I wouldn’t be surprised) if the gmc would want a discussion on the matter. That is not an unreasonable thought given his professional position.

JMO

It was just the reference to serious implications on his fitness to practise, an d possibly suspended/struck off which I found rather harsh.

 

[ColourPurple]

And FFS Doc Choc didn't just forward LL that email, on 6th July he told her what had been said about her in a meeting that afternoon too!

Letby later messaged the doctor: "I can't do this job if it's going to be like this. My head is a mess. Why is she ringing at this time. There must be a problem."

The doctor replied: "Lucy - you did nothing wrong at all. It is an odd time to ring, but you've had a rough few days and a good manager would realise that."

After the doctor messaged with further reassurance, Letby responded: "I can't talk about this now. Sorry, I just need a bit of time.

"Sorry, that was rude. Felt completely overwhelmed & panicked for a minute. We all worked tirelessly & did everything possible, i don't see how anyone can question that. E has always been very supportive.

"Im having a meltdown++ but think that's what I need to do."

Letby worked long day shifts from June 28-30 at the neonatal unit – her last days there.

On July 6, the doctor messaged Letby: "You need to keep this to yourself. The meeting this afternoon looked at everything with Baby O & Baby P from birth onwards. [NB. Name of Baby O and P redacted]

"We reviewed everything. Room / meds / medical reviews and actions. We looked at all documentation med & nur. If you've any doubt about how good you are at your job - stop now.

"The documentation was perfect, everybody commented about the appropriateness of your request for a review of Baby O following vomit. (name of baby O redacted). Your documentation of the resus / incubation / drugs was faultless.


"There is absolutely nothing for you to worry about. Please don't.

"There are going to be some recommendations based on staffing / kit but there was no criticism of either resus.

"This is staying quiet until has been to exec's. We're looking at [third triplet] care on Thur.

"E had nothing but good things to say about you."

Letby replied: "Ok......I Really appreciate you telling me - it won't go any further. I was one member of a huge team effort, but you know I've been carrying the worry of the 'what if I wasn't enough' - it's reassuring to hear that it doesn't appear that anything could have been done differently, or that I didn't act on or do something I should have. Thank you."

Letby is sent an email, made by Countess Dr Stephen Brearey, advising that the deaths of Child O and Child P were likely to result in an inquest, as the cause of both deaths was 'unexplained'.

Letby asked: "It's a bit of a worry if it's going that far. Do you think I'll be involved?" Letby is reassured: "Probably not."

The doctor added: "I know you won't say anything - this email has to stay between us, is that ok?"

Lucy Letby 'worried' she was 'in trouble' over baby deaths

LUCY LETBY messaged a nursing colleague: "If they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly" during a Countess of Chester Hospital…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

More info of what was in LL's timeline:

The same day, Letby messages her nursing colleague: "I've done a timeline of this year."

The colleague responds: "Fab. And how quite afew babies weren't compatable with life anyway. I wonder if midwives get this with amount of stillbirths......"

Letby: "Yeah and some went off within hours/on handover.

"Or were already acutely unwell when I took over.

"And put that when Baby Q went off No other staff able to care for him etc (name of Baby Q redacted)."

The colleague responds: "Not like all behaving fantastically till right into shift."

Letby: "Hoping to get as much info together as possible -if they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly, not Me."

Lucy Letby 'worried' she was 'in trouble' over baby deaths

LUCY LETBY messaged a nursing colleague: "If they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly" during a Countess of Chester Hospital…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

Anyone remember what position "Tony" held at the time? I remember he was high up? CEO or something else?

ETA- I think she's talking about Tony Chambers, he was CEO and resigned on 19 September 2018!

On August 8, Letby messages the nursing colleague: "Tony phoned. He's going to speak to Karen and insist on the review being no later than 1st week of Sept but said he definitely wouldn't advise pushing to get back to unit until it's taken place. Asked about social things and he said it's up to me but would advise not speaking with anyone in case any of them are involved with the review process. Thinks I should keep head down.and ride it out and can take further once over.

"Feel a bit like Im being shoved in a corner and.forgotten about by.the trust. It's my life and career.

"He's not been.given any information about the evidence he asked for.which is good. He's not sure what the external people.are going to look at in relation to me but we are in the process now.so have to ride it out"

The colleague responds: "Ok well just have to take his advice then suppose"

Letby: "Still can't believe this has happened. It's making me feel like I should hide away by saying not speak to anyone and going on for months etc - I haven't done anything wrong."

The colleague responds: "Me neither! I know it's all so ridiculous."

Letby: "I can't see where it will all end"

The colleague responds: "I'm sure this time after xmas it'll all b a distant memory."

After Letby received an email announcing she had been seconded to the Risk & Patient Safety office for three months, she messaged the nursing colleague again, saying: "Bloody hell fuming. Im in email and makes it sound like my choice."

The timeline records Letby met with a review panel on September 1. On September 7, she registered a grievance procedure.

Lucy Letby 'worried' she was 'in trouble' over baby deaths

LUCY LETBY messaged a nursing colleague: "If they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly" during a Countess of Chester Hospital…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

The chief executive of the Countess of Chester Hospital Tony Chambers has today (Wednesday, September 19 2018) resigned in a surprise move.

His decision to 'step aside' comes after a difficult year for the hospital focusing on unexplained deaths at the hospital's neonatal unit.

On July 3 an unnamed healthcare professional was arrested on suspicion of murdering eight babies and the attempted murder of six new-borns.

She was later bailed without charge pending further enquiries.

There is no suggestion Mr Chambers' resignation is in any way linked to developments concerning the neonatal unit.

Chester hospital boss Tony Chambers resigns

New medical director and deputy chief executive Dr Susan Gilby has taken the helm

www.cheshire-live.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

It was just the reference to serious implications on his fitness to practise, an d possibly suspended/struck off which I found rather harsh.

What I meant by it was; was that it “could” have serious implications (yes to practice or struck off) if the gmc see fit. They are the gatekeepers to staying on the register as we both know.
Whilst we don’t know exactly *what* was in that email and the discussion that dr choc had with ll that could have followed; what I meant by it was that the gmc could decide he has breached his professional duty and fitness to stay on the register. We just don’t know.

I didn’t mean (personally) that his career should be ruined. That wasn’t what I meant and I don’t feel anyone should necessarily have their life ruined by ll actions if she is guilty. What I was saying was that everything could change for him if the gmc decide that disclosure was serious enough. Sure, I guess it could be seen as them doing that is extreme, however it doesn’t mean they can’t or won’t- it could be a huge consequence for him.

I don’t think anyone would be surprised if ll had her nmc pin suspended in line with the ongoing investigations etc that’s where my thought process was. If he was “involved” and any doubt was raised or questions etc, would it be unreasonable to think the gmc would not want to discuss further with him? It’s possible.

JMO

 

[Sundial]

Anyone remember what position "Tony" held at the time? I remember he wa shigh up? CEO or something else?

On August 8, Letby messages the nursing colleague: "Tony phoned. He's going to speak to Karen and insist on the review being no later than 1st week of Sept but said he definitely wouldn't advise pushing to get back to unit until it's taken place. Asked about social things and he said it's up to me but would advise not speaking with anyone in case any of them are involved with the review process. Thinks I should keep head down.and ride it out and can take further once over.

"Feel a bit like Im being shoved in a corner and.forgotten about by.the trust. It's my life and career.

"He's not been.given any information about the evidence he asked for.which is good. He's not sure what the external people.are going to look at in relation to me but we are in the process now.so have to ride it out"

The colleague responds: "Ok well just have to take his advice then suppose"

Letby: "Still can't believe this has happened. It's making me feel like I should hide away by saying not speak to anyone and going on for months etc - I haven't done anything wrong."

The colleague responds: "Me neither! I know it's all so ridiculous."

Letby: "I can't see where it will all end"

The colleague responds: "I'm sure this time after xmas it'll all b a distant memory."

After Letby received an email announcing she had been seconded to the Risk & Patient Safety office for three months, she messaged the nursing colleague again, saying: "Bloody hell fuming. Im in email and makes it sound like my choice."

The timeline records Letby met with a review panel on September 1. On September 7, she registered a grievance procedure.

Lucy Letby 'worried' she was 'in trouble' over baby deaths

LUCY LETBY messaged a nursing colleague: "If they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly" during a Countess of Chester Hospital…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Again, an review that they aren’t supposed to be discussing as she was advised; but was discussing anyway.

I totally get *why* if you had done nothing wrong. But given the circumstances, it would have been best to just *not* discuss it and step back and let the review happen.
What a mess for all involved.
Jmo

 

[Dcflag]

I actually think his conduct is concerning. He clearly knows he’s sharing information he shouldn’t have been as he is consistently telling her not to tell anyone he has shared it. He clearly didn’t foresee where this was all heading, but surely it compromises the internal review process. It bothers me he’s so flippant. There are ways to be supportive and be a friend without divulging information he shouldn’t be.

 

[Sundial]

I actually think his conduct is concerning. He clearly knows he’s sharing information he shouldn’t have been as he is consistently telling her not to tell anyone he has shared it. He clearly didn’t foresee where this was all heading, but surely it compromises the internal review process. It bothers me he’s so flippant. There are ways to be supportive and be a friend without divulging information he shouldn’t be.

I think this is what I’m trying to express, I completely get he may not have seen where this would end up. But given the situation, I just mean it wouldn’t surprise me if he then had (or may need to) answer to the gmc on his actions/explain himself.

They may feel he is in serious breach of conduct or whatever. It’s not something they (or the nmc for nurses) take lightly. We Jst don’t know how these registers (fitness to practice) would react to this. Such a mess

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Actually in terms of statement analysis this doesn't look good for LL.

"If they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly".

"If": there would be no "if" if she was innocent of assault/malpractice/incompetence. The inclusion of the "if" explicitly allows the possibility of wrongdoing.

Combined with "they have (...) minimal on me" - the minimal allows for an even greater possibility of wrongdoing - it's almost like she's admitting they could have something on her but dismissing it as "minimal".

"If they have nothing or minimal on me" altogether is extremely dodgy: she's not suggesting her innocence at all, but suggesting that if she has done something wrong they're unlikely to find any evidence.

"(...) they'll look silly" is arrogant, contemptuous bravado. The trivialisation is purposeful: she's showing her contempt for the silly process to try to show she has nothing to worry about.

i would disagree there I think you could take multiple things from it as well.

assume your in the same shoes as her at that point if it was me I would be thinking which she may have been.

at that point you are informed that there is a potential s*** storm on the horizon but you don’t know what. As far as you know you have done everything right and not done any bolus’s at all but you know you are under investigation. You cannot say 100% that you know everything you did was correct so your wondering what they might find. Your conclusion is “if I have done everything right they won’t find much or nothing” hence those sentences. I think all in all the coms today still imply she isn’t aware of just how serious this situation could be, obviously had absolutely no idea that police could be involved.

I also think there she uses the word “silly” not in any contemptuous way but more saying if they instigated the investigation in a way that makes her look bad and come up with nothing or nothing much, they would look silly. Which is true, however doesn’t go against the idea that she thinks they are still acting professionally.


that’s one potential reading of it and jmo.

 

[marynnu]

Bit of a random question, but does anybody know of a list of the babies which gives their gestation? I can't see one, but if it exists, I know you clever folks will know! Thanks.

 

[Dotta]

So
It seems her being moved to day shifts happened at nearly the end of her career as a nurse, no?
For how long?
3 days?
Now it all seems more clear.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

"At one stage in the WhatsApp and Facebook messages Letby mentions the possibility of an air embolism being the cause of a baby's death."

Lucy Letby was transferred from unit over doctors' fears, trial hears

Hospital managers transferred neonatal nurse Lucy Letby to a patient 'risk and safety' unit after consultants insisted on having her removed from frontline work with babies, a trial heard today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Anxala]

I think that"s a bit extreme. You can't go suggesting that someone's career should be ruined just because they shared something they shouldn't have. Anybody might do this to help a trusted friend, I know I would.

A very grateful thank you, marynnu, for always being such a good and welcome voice of no nonsense reason on this thread/case.

What I most appreciate (along of course with all your extremely helpful medical input for those of clueless us) is your consistent intolerance for this 'medic as saint' narrative.

 

[Tortoise]

gestations and age at date of alleged murder/attempted murder


A - 31 wks - 1 day old
B - 31 wks - 3 days old
C - 30 wks - 4 days old
D - full term - 2 days old
E- 29 wks - 6 days old
F - 29 wks - 7 days old
G - 23+6 - (1st) 100 days - (2nd &3rd) due date
H - 34 wks - (1st) 4 days old - (2nd) 5 days old
I - 27 wks - (1st) 8 wks old - (2nd) 9+ wks old - (3rd) 9.5 wks old- (death) 11 wks old
J- 32+2 - 27 days old
K - 25 wks
L - 33+2 - 1 day old
M - 33+2 - 1 day old
N - 34+4 - (1st) 1 day old - (2nd & 3rd) - 13 days old
O - 33+5 - 2 days old
P - 33+5 - 3 days old
Q - 31+3 - 3 days old

 

[marynnu]

"At one stage in the WhatsApp and Facebook messages Letby mentions the possibility of an air embolism being the cause of a baby's death."

Lucy Letby was transferred from unit over doctors' fears, trial hears

Hospital managers transferred neonatal nurse Lucy Letby to a patient 'risk and safety' unit after consultants insisted on having her removed from frontline work with babies, a trial heard today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Can this be true? You'd think it would be reported elsewhere. But surely even DM wouldn't just brazenly lie? Confused!

 

[marynnu]

gestations and age at date of alleged murder/attempted murder


A - 31 wks - 1 day old
B - 31 wks - 3 days old
C - 30 wks - 4 days old
D - full term - 2 days old
E- 29 wks - 6 days old
F - 29 wks - 7 days old
G - 23+6 - (1st) 100 days - (2nd &3rd) due date
H - 34 wks - (1st) 4 days old - (2nd) 5 days old
I - 27 wks - (1st) 8 wks old - (2nd) 9+ wks old - (3rd) 9.5 wks old- (death) 11 wks old
J- 32+2 - 27 days old
K - 25 wks
L - 33+2 - 1 day old
M - 33+2 - 1 day old
N - 34+4 - (1st) 1 day old - (2nd & 3rd) - 13 days old
O - 33+5 - 2 days old
P - 33+5 - 3 days old
Q - 31+3 - 3 days old

Thanks so much Tortoise, always there for us. I did try but got in a tangle! Bless you. x

Shocking when put like this though, isn't it.

 

[Becky53]

On July 15, 2016, Ms Lloyd Powell informs staff that all of them will need to undertake 'a period of clinical supervision' in preparation for an external review.

'Due to our staffing issues it has been difficult to determine how we undertake this process. We can only support one member of staff at a time, therefore we have decided that it would be useful to commence with staff who have been involved in many of the acute events, facilitating a supportive role to each individual.

'Therefore Lucy has agreed to undergo this supervision first commencing on Monday 18th July, 2016.

'I appreciate that this process may be an added stress factor in an already emotive environment, but we need to ensure that we can assure a safe environment, in addition to safeguarding not only our babies but our staff'.

Lucy Letby was transferred from unit over doctors' fears, trial hears

Hospital managers transferred neonatal nurse Lucy Letby to a patient 'risk and safety' unit after consultants insisted on having her removed from frontline work with babies, a trial heard today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

BBM
Says it all really commencing with member of staff who has been involved in most (all) events. JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Have absolutely no idea what to think she actually mentions air embolism. Of all the things in a convo to miss reporting on and they miss that.

 

[Becky53]

The manager follows this up with a second email on August 9. This reads:

'Hi All, There are currently opportunities for staff to apply for secondment throughout the Trust. It is therefore come at an opportune time for us and we were able to facilitate this for Lucy.

'Lucy is currently seconded to the Risk & Patient Safety office for a period of 3 months.

'Laura is currently seconded to the Haemodialysis unit and will be returning in November 2016.

'Should anyone have an interest in other areas please discuss this further during your appraisal – or come to me directly.

Kindest regards,

Eirian'.

Lucy Letby was transferred from unit over doctors' fears, trial hears

Hospital managers transferred neonatal nurse Lucy Letby to a patient 'risk and safety' unit after consultants insisted on having her removed from frontline work with babies, a trial heard today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I wonder if staff get to choose their secondment?